Frisco Pullman Sleeper Cars

Discussion in 'Heavyweight Cars' started by slsfrr (Jerome Lutzenberger RIP 9/1/2018), Oct 10, 2006.

  1. slsfrr (Jerome Lutzenberger RIP 9/1/2018)

    slsfrr (Jerome Lutzenberger RIP 9/1/2018) Engineer Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Group,

    After the Pullman Company was forced to make concessions to the railroads, I believe the Frisco received several cars.

    If so, where these cars lettered and numbered for the Frisco or did they retain their Pullman lettering, etc.?

    If the cars where not re-lettered, does anyone know what cars where assigned to the Frisco name wise?

    I have some Branchline heavy weight Pullmans that I would like to put Frisco on but cannot find any evidence that it would be prototypical.

    Thanks,

    Jerome
    Ft. Worth
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2024
  2. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

  3. slsfrr (Jerome Lutzenberger RIP 9/1/2018)

    slsfrr (Jerome Lutzenberger RIP 9/1/2018) Engineer Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Thanks,

    That was a good start!

    Where any of those cars lettered for the Frisco or did they retain their Pullman lettering?

    Jerome
     
  4. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    1956 Heavyweight Pullman Assignments

    A 1956 roster lists only the following heavyweight cars.

    All the cars were acquired from Pullman in December of 1948, as a result of the 1940 anti-trust lawsuit, and leased back to Pullman. The roster states that they have been painted red and silver with shadow stripes. The roster lists these cars as Frisco cars, so I think one can safely assume that they were lettered Frisco.

    The Frisco owned more than these 12 heavyweight cars, and leased them back to Pullman. I did not compile a complete list of Frisco-own Pullmans but for example, 12-1, Plan 3410, sleeper "McZena", was retired in June, 1962, and 10-1-2, Plan 2585 sleeper "Badger State", was retired in July 1962. It still leaves the question of how were these other cars lettered unanswered. I will continue to poke around.

    Note that the sleeper "Magdalen Tower" was rebuilt into baggage car SLSF 446. The car later saw MOW service as a tool car on the Springfield wrecker. The distinctive roof line was easy to spot.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 16, 2025
  5. gbmott

    gbmott Member

    In the case of the Pullmans assigned to trains No 709-710, they were 10 section 3 double bedroom, 10-3, cars "Villa Superb" and "Villa Peerless".

    They were originally painted in the red and silver shadow line scheme, but later simplified to just red and silver but without the shadow lining.

    They had "Frisco" centered on the letterboard and small "Pullman" above the vestibules.

    I would assume that the other Pullmans were similarly lettered.

    Gordon Mott
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2024
  6. slsfrr (Jerome Lutzenberger RIP 9/1/2018)

    slsfrr (Jerome Lutzenberger RIP 9/1/2018) Engineer Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    At the train show in Fort Worth, TX last week end, May 27th, a vendor had numerous lose leaf photograph albums full of train pictures.

    Several contained Frisco passenger, steam, diesels, depot, and equipment. While browsing through them I found a picture of “Robert F Hoke” painted in red and silver, no striping.

    As Gordon Mott indicated about the Pullmans assigned to trains No 709-710, the "Villa Superb" and "Villa Peerless", this car had Frisco centered and Pullman to the left and right of the vestibule doors.

    Unfortunately, there is no date or location on the picture, but it looks like it might be Oklahoma City, OK.

    Anyway, I was glad to find a picture of one more Frisco owned Pullman lettered Frisco.

    Another interesting photograph was of the Frisco passenger train to Pensacola, Florida, arriving Pensacola August 9, 1942, with Frisco 4-6-0 SLSF 1108 and four cars - one baggage-express-RPO and three passenger cars, one of which looks like a Pullman or buffet car.

    Because both the North and South bound trains were nocturnal with early morning arrival and late afternoon departure from Pensacola, photographs of this train are hard to find.

    Jerome
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 7, 2024
  7. gbmott

    gbmott Member

    To clarify, I have seen enough photographs of Frisco heavyweight Pullmans to feel confident that all of those that were painted in red and silver, whether with shadow lines or the later version without, all carried "Frisco" in the letterboard with small "Pullman" near the vestibules.

    The one exception was 12-1, Plan 3410A, sleeper "McZena" which was Frisco-owned but lettered for the Texas Special.

    However, there were quite a number of other Pullman cars that were transferred to Frisco ownership in the 1948 divesture that, as far as I know, remained in Pullman green or perhaps even in TTG.

    I suspect, but cannot prove, that these retained their original Pullman lettering.

    If the original objective of this thread was to support putting gold "Frisco" in the letterboard of Walthers Pullman green cars, it has not done that.

    And frankly, I think you would be on thin ice so doing without someone coming up with a photograph of a prototype to prove it.

    Gordon
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 7, 2024
  8. slsfrr (Jerome Lutzenberger RIP 9/1/2018)

    slsfrr (Jerome Lutzenberger RIP 9/1/2018) Engineer Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Gordon,

    The Branchline cars are or were to be painted red and silver with imitation shadow lining using ATSF decals.

    I had been looking for a photograph to confirm what you had said concerning the red and silver cars and was letting the group share in the information.

    Jerome
    Ft. Worth
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2024
  9. LarryT

    LarryT Member

    Assignment car lists were published about every six months by D. R. Culver of the Pullman Company and sent to transportation departments, passenger traffic departments of each railroad.

    Has anyone discovered a Pullman assignment car list for Frisco cars?

    I need to know what Frisco cars were assigned to Pullman Line 3415, Chicago-Oklahoma City, at any time prior to the Line's cutback to St. Louis-Oklahoma City.

    Larry T
    St. Louis
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2024
  10. gbmott

    gbmott Member

    Jerome,

    I would be very interested in learning how successful you were in using the shadow line decals.

    I have not gotten up the courage yet to attempt it myself and anything that you could share from your experience would certainly be appreciated.

    Incidentally, whose red and what brand paint are you using?

    Also, what did or will you do regarding decals for the lettering on your car?

    Unfortunately, the Oddball Decals set is of very limited use as it only provides the "FRISCO" for the letterboard. Even that is, I think, marginally too large though useable.

    But it does not include the "Pullman" necessary for near the vestibule doors nor, of course, any appropriate car names.

    Gordon
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2024
  11. slsfrr (Jerome Lutzenberger RIP 9/1/2018)

    slsfrr (Jerome Lutzenberger RIP 9/1/2018) Engineer Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Gordon,

    The first car I did was a Rivarossi Pullman.

    I used Testors number 1104 dark red and Testors number 1146 silver to paint the car. This is the paint that I have always used in the past.

    For the striping I used Microscale Industries number RH-124, 2 inch gold striping. I had to put each strip on individually and splice them together to fit the length of the car.

    It looks good, but not great, mainly because the stripes are to light color wise for the car.

    I used Walthers decals to letter the car. The Walthers decals do include the small letter ‘Pullman’ which I placed by the vestibule doors. I believe they are out of stock.

    As for the name of the car, I made one up.

    After doing this car I started looking for a better method of putting the stripes on the car and either through this group, or one of the others, the Santa Fe Passenger Car - Shadow Stripe decal, 87-1243, was mentioned.

    I then emailed Rail Graphics and sent them some samples of print and ask if they could make decal sets with passenger car names only and a few needed car numbers.

    I now have about 15 different car names in red and gold, including Beauregard and Hoke. I am not totally pleased with the decals but at least I have names.

    If you want to email me off list with your address, I will be glad to send you enough decals to do those two cars, both red and gold.

    The two Branchline cars were painted Pullman green and lettered for East Copper and Pawnee. I decided not to paint them red and silver.

    I am now working on a Walthers paired window modernized turtle back coach. I do not think the Frisco had any coaches like this, but I had it left over from another project and thought I would give it a try using the Santa Fe Shadow Stripes.

    I just finished painting it today, sprayed with gloss coat and am waiting for it to dry before putting the decals on. I did notice that the stripes for the Santa Fe are spaced different for the top and bottom of the car.

    I do not know if this is kosher for the Frisco cars. If not, it will present a problem. When I get it done I will let you know how it turned out. For this car I used Scalecoat ATSF red.

    The car that I just finished was diner lounge ‘Kansas City’, used on the ‘Kansas City Florida Special’. For this car I used two Atheran turtle back coaches and one Atheran streamlined coach.

    The length of the car is 82 feet coupler to coupler, inside 79 feet. I could not find the dimensions so I worked off the photographs from the various books.

    For the corrugation I used Plastruct N-scale corrugated siding. I painted the car with Scalecoat ATSF red and Scalecoat silver. I wanted to letter the car Birmingham, but Kansas City is in the Oddball Decals set so I used it.

    I had originally bought the above coach and a Walthers 36 chair dinner for this project, but decided I did not want to cut those cars up and went with the Atheran option. By the way, the Walthers 36 chair diner is a close match to the Frisco diners SLSF 641, 642 and 643.

    I have used Testors number 1104, Floquil ATSF red, and Scalecoat ATSF red. I like Scalecoat because it leaves a good glossy finish that you can put decals on with out an additional gloss coat of paint.

    Floquil seems to be the paint of chose for most hobbyist and can be found at most hobby shops. However, I think I am going to stay with Testors for streamlined passenger cars and E7As (EA7) and E8As. I like the color and the way it coats better than the other paints.

    But, as I said, I have used all three paints and if I put the different painted cars side by side you can not tell the difference.

    Maybe this has already been discussed and I over looked it, but, where the dining cars Kansas City, Birmingham, and Memphis rebuilt from the Frisco diners SLSF 641, 642, and 643?

    Hope this helps,

    Jerome
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2024
  12. slsfrr (Jerome Lutzenberger RIP 9/1/2018)

    slsfrr (Jerome Lutzenberger RIP 9/1/2018) Engineer Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Group,

    Below are some attachments of a few engines and cars that I have modified and or painted.

    The first is a Broadway Limited E7A (EA7) SLSF 2002 that I painted and lettered for the Meteor. I added a number board and used corrugated siding from 'Union Station Products'. I could not resist putting Frisco on the side of the engine.

    The third image is a Model Power E7A (EA7) SLSF 2000 that had all the grabs, etc., chiseled off and replaced with metal, lower head light added, pilot coupler hole filled in, and a can motor on a modified Atheran SD45 frame. Behind, in the distance, are two Proto 2000 E8As that I painted and lettered.

    The fourth and sixth photographs are an image of dining car Kansas City.

    The fifth image is of OK Streamlined Pullman Standard corrugated sided metal, extruded aluminum cars. These are nice cars, but do not have a lot of detail.

    I hope you enjoy the images.

    Jerome
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2024
  13. gna

    gna Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Jerome,

    Very impressive work. I particularly like your dining car "Kansas City".

    In an earlier post, you said you used a Rivarossi Pullman.

    Is that the regular Rivarossi heavyweight Pullman that comes with a set?

    I picked up a set cheap a while ago, and I am trying to decide what to do with them.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2024
  14. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    Hello Jerome,

    I see your post is nearly a year old.

    I just joined the FL this morning 8/31/2007, but I do have some information regarding Frisco lettering on heavyweight Pullmans if you are still interested. I have a few grainy photographs circa 1960 of some Frisco Pullmans stored at Springfield, MO.

    I am not sure of the configurations of the cars 8-1-2, 10-1-2, etc., but from photographs here is what I have.

    Cars P G T Beauregard, Magdalen Tower, Villa Peerless, Norwich University and Drake University are in the red and silver scheme, no shadow stripe. Large "Frisco" centered in letterboard, car name centered in pier panel below. Small "Pullman" at each end of letterboard has been painted over.

    Cars Rathaus Tower, Smith College and Villa Superb same as above, except small Pullman lettering at each end of letterboard still showing.

    Car SLSF 1810, which I believe is ex-Trinity College, is painted red and silver, with no shadow stripe and has large "Frisco" centered on letterboard. The small "Pullman" name at each car end and the car name have been painted over and the number "1810" with very small "SL-SF" reporting marks beneath are centered over each truck.

    These last cars are painted Pullman green.

    Car SLSF 1809 has only the numbers and small "SL-SF" centered over the trucks. The Pullman name and car name have been painted over, I suppose in Pullman green.

    Cars Lynafield, Laidlaw and McVille have the large Pullman name covered with what looks to be an aluminum panel with only the car name showing.

    Regards,

    Tom
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2024
  15. slsfrr (Jerome Lutzenberger RIP 9/1/2018)

    slsfrr (Jerome Lutzenberger RIP 9/1/2018) Engineer Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Group and Gordon,

    Bellow are images of the Walthers passenger car that I painted and lettered.

    The ‘shadow stripes’ went on easier than what I thought they would. But I had a hard time getting them to set account of air bubbles. After a couple of days and the use of a hair dryer and needle they did snuggle down.

    One of the things I learned is try making your splices at a rivet line. All in all, the decals turned out well. It does take two sets if you want the stripes on the top and bottom to be the same. Actually you could do three cars with four sets.

    By the way, the door step on the left side of the cars is just lose, it is not glued on crooked. I did not notice it until I was looking at the photograph.

    Gary,

    Thanks for the compliment on diner ‘Kansas City’.

    The Rivarossi car was a heavyweight 10-1-2, I believe. I picked it up used at a hobby shop. I would assume it is the same as ones that come in the sets. It is a fairly easy car to disassemble and paint.

    Tom,

    I would love, and I think others on the forum would also, to see the photographs you have of the Pullman cars. Perhaps you can post the images for us. It would be invaluable to use modelers.

    Lets see some other model passenger cars and passenger engines posted. Maybe to go along with Mike's prototype posting for the month of September.

    Jerome
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2024
  16. w3hodoug (Doug Hughes RIP 03/24/2021)

    w3hodoug (Doug Hughes RIP 03/24/2021) 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    Here is a spreadsheet of Frisco heavyweight Pullman cars I put together a few years ago.

    Doug
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 6, 2024
  17. slsfrr (Jerome Lutzenberger RIP 9/1/2018)

    slsfrr (Jerome Lutzenberger RIP 9/1/2018) Engineer Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Doug,

    Nice work!

    Thanks for sharing,

    Jerome
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2024
  18. I purchased a compact disk (CD) of Frisco photographs which contained a color photograph of a heavyweight sleeper.

    These is no information about the photographs included. The car is clearly an 8 section, drawing room, 2 compartment, 8-DR-2, car. This would make it either the Robert F. Hoke, Rock Run, Rock Park, or the P. G. T. Beauregard.

    The car is painted red and silver with shadow lining, and lettered FRISCO with small PULLMAN at each vestibule. Unfortunately the car name is not legible.

    Earlier in this thread a photograph of the Robert F. Hoke is mentioned as showing it as red and silver without shadow lining.

    Anyone have any idea which car this might be?

    Likewise in the book Trackside Around St. Louis, page 105, a photograph shows a 12 section 2 double bedroom, 12-2, sleeper which would have to be Drake University or Norwich University.

    It is painted the same except no shadow lining. Again the car name is not legible.

    Any idea which car this is?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2024
  19. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    Larry,

    In my set of Frisco Pullman photographs the following Frisco Pullmans are painted in red and silver with no shadow line stripes: Magdalen Tower, Smith College, Villa Superb, Villa Peerless, P G T Beauregard, Rathaus Tower, Drake University, Norwich University and SLSF 1810 (ex-Trinity College) which has had the car name painted over.

    I soon hope to post some photographs and I mentioned in my post below.

    There were others painted red and silver - Robert F Hoke, Amherst College, and Drury College and maybe more? I do not have a list handy as to what configuration there cars were, 10-3, 12-2, etc..

    Most sources I have heard and read say that the red and silver Frisco Pullmans were not shadow striped, but there was at least one that was. See Marre and Sommers' book Frisco In Color, page 120 coupled to heavyweight diner "Birmingham".

    Tom
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 31, 2024
  20. I had forgotten about that photograph in the book Frisco in Color.

    If you look closely, the car number is visible in the window, namely 69. In the book Night Trains, the three sleepers on the Kansas City Florida Special in March 1952 were S67 an 8 section-5 double bedroom sleeper, S68 a 14 roomette-4 double bedroom, 14-4 sleeper, and car S69 a 10 section-2 bedroom-1 compartment, 10-2-1, sleeper.

    If car S69 was still the same type of car in July 1955, the date of Frisco in Color book photograph, then the car would have to be a "College" series sleeper. And since my photograph is an 8 section-drawing room-2 compartment, 8-DR-2 car, that would suggest that there were at least two cars with shadow line paint.

    Maybe we will figure this out eventually.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 31, 2024

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