Frisco -BN Transition Period (1981-1983) Modeling

Haha! That's quite the patriotic paint scheme you've got there...I've been working on my own idea too. It's on an older F7 though. Like you, I have been thinking about how the Warbonnet would look with a little Frisco flair added in. I'll post it once I've put some finishing touches on it. I'd like to change my poll answer please, concerning the BN, change it too: Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

 

I read once in an older issue of Trains Magazine in the mid 60's that the Frisco & Southern Rwys were talking of a merger. The talks ended in 1966. That also would have been some different paint schemes. I wonder what the name of the joined road would be. I prefer this shade of green to the BN's.
Ship it on the Frisco!!!


Murphy Jenkins

 

Version one seeks to blend a streamlined Warbonnet with the Frisco's cigar banding.




Version two deletes the upper band for a look that is a little less 'busy'.



Version three is a more Santa Fe flavored scheme.

These of course would have come from a time before the Red & White diesels existed. Up until the 60's, both roads painted many of their switchers and road switchers black with safety stripes. If we have a ficticious merger year around 1960, this is my idea of what might come out of the paint shops after that time.

 

Moved to Texas from Illinois in 1975. Before 1975 I did not see Frisco equipment except in St Louis. I watched the Frisco in DFW area till 1981 and started to see green on the Frisco and FW&D. I thought the MKT ,MP, ATSF, SP , KCS were safe from the borg. The RI died and only the KCS remains. mktjames

 

Although I'm not a frisco purist, I am very partial to the southeastern portion of the Frisco and all of it's history...including the present. I would run anything with ties to the SE portion of the Frisco. Some examples: Frisco, KCM&B, AT&N, The Mississippian, and yes...even BN & BNSF. I like to run my very first locomotive, a Santa Fe diesel, with BN diesels while pulling Frisco rolling stock. A BN unit with a SF unit and some Frisco gondolas, flat cars, and open hoppers make for a very good BNSF MOW work train.

 

I have been trying to wipe the cobwebs out of my brain. I no longer have my Trains Magazines but I seem to recall that Frisco and Santa Fe talked merger in the early 60s. There was a news photo in Trains of a set of Frisco F7s on the ATSF in California if memory serves me well. Also during this period Frisco attempted to gain control of the Central of Georgia. I was living in Tampa, Florida, at the time and visited Ed Bunch who was an agent at the Frisco´s off line traffic office in Tampa on a regular basis. If I recall, Ed thought this would not only give the Frisco a stronger influence in the Southeast but a more well ballanced competetion between the ACL, SAL and Southern Railway as well.

Alas, money and power talk. Frisco´s request was shot down when Southern Railway was blessed by the ICC to gain control of the CofG and black diesels lettered Central of Georgia started to dot the Georgia countryside. Think what a merger the ATSF with the Frisco and Frisco´s CofG takeover would have produced! Not long after the dust settled on this typical blunder by the ICC (spelled US government), the Southern got shot out of the saddle itself when the ICC approved the merger between the ACL and SAL that produced the Seaboard Coast Line and didn´t approve Southern´s request to extend operations to Tampa which had been a condition that Southern had presented at the merger proceedings. No doubt, Southern´s entrance into Tampa would have operated via the ACL´s Perry Cut-Off.

Look at the map of Florida railroads today and compare to the one on M-Day when SCL became the new kid on the block and you will see how much track has been ripped up in the Sunshine State. The most tragic loss is the ACL´s Perry Cut-Off that shortened the time and distance it took freight from New Orleans, Kansas City, St. Louis and Chicago gateways to get to Tampa and other Florida west coast destinations. In retrospect, I don´t understand why Frisco didn´t attempt to push for trackage rights over the Perry Cut-Off to Tampa from Pensacola itself as a condition to the merger between the ACL and SAL? It must be remembered that ACL had a controlling interest in the L&N which also penetrated SL-SF territory in the Southeast. Despite the fact that before the merger, the ACL and SAL were rivals, the L&N and SAL maintained friendly connections at Chatahoochie as well!

Fast forward. BNSF now operates a giant rail system that comprises the ATSF and Frisco. Tampa is a major player in the ports game with the Port of Tampa (visit www.tampaport.com) continuing to grow. Freight hauled on BNSF to Florida west coast destinations has to travel additional distances which accounts for time loss to customers. Until CSX restores the famous Perry Cut-Off that the Atlantic Coast Line built in the 1920s and reduces valuable travel time for freight, it need not boast that it is a modern 21st Century transportation system providing customer service satisfation!

Perhaps BNSF should take the bull by the horns and replace the track from the Florida Panhandle via the Perry Cut-Off to Tampa and bridge the gap between Pensicola to the cut-off with trackage rights over CSX? Modeling the 60s with black and yellow diesels and fancy red E units, the new image red-orange and white that was inspired by the GP35-DD35-GP35 EMD demo set (also adopted by the Colorado & Wyoming as well), the transition to the Jolly Green Giant and loss of a favorite fallen flag, to high tech modern railroading behind BNSF power running over former Frisco trackage to a well thought out freelanced "what if" Frisco is part of the continuing drama that makes model railroading so exciting and each Frisco fan share his or her own personal interest and ideas that bring all of the Frisco Folks together for enjoyment of the hobby and fellowship, that continues to keep the memory of a great railroad that helped build America and make it the finest and free nation that all of us love in our hearts.

Joe Toth
The Trinity River Bottoms Boomer

 

Please see post two in this thread which talks about the Frisco-Santa Fe run through service.

http://www.frisco.org/vb/showthread.php?2262-SLSF-GP-20-s&highlight=cajon

Even as early as 1911, the Frisco and ATSF participated in "through-traffic arrangements",

Please see:
http://www.frisco.org/vb/showthread.php?4247-St-Louis-and-SAN-FRANSISCO&highlight=santa+fe

 

At least the early 80's still had cabooses. Steve.

 

I would not be able to EVER bring myself to model the BN/SLSF transistion era. WAY too many screw jobs on all fronts here in my region of the Frisco. The BN screwed over friends that worked for the Frisco, REALLY screwed over the operations on the Central Sub, ran off the Whirlpool business... etc, etc, ad naseum. I had never seen a subdivision go to crap so fast in my life. They were hell bent on getting rid of (abandonment) the Central Sub and almost succeeded. The Central Sub was a SHELL of what it was when the A&M took it over, and it only took about 6 short years to do it. Today, the A&M typically runs 60-90 car trains DAILY (weekdays) between Fort Smith and Springdale. (A few weeks ago I handled a 94 car train off the turn, and we sent them north with almost the same count.) That business was GONE when the A&M took over. Instead, at the start-up of the A&M, the Fort Smith Turn ran three times a week MAYBE. I have been onboard many times helping the crew during the A&M's first years when there was only a handful of cars on the tri-weekly Fort Smith Turn. Simply put: There would BE NO Central Sub if it weren't for the A&M takeover in '86.

BN/SLSF? No thanks. Why anyone that really likes the Frisco would want to model the BN takeover is beyond me. It holds nothing but BAD MEMORIES for me.

Also remember this place is "Frisco.org", so with the possible stretch/reach of the "transistion era" of the SLSF/BN, modeling the BN doesn't have much place here at Frisco.org. No, this is a site devoted to the historical preservation, and modeling of, the FRISCO, and not it's successor.

Naturally, the above is only my personal point of view. Of course, since you've already purchased your first BN engine, your mileage obviously varies.

Bottom line: It's your model railroad. You can do what you want with it. We'll find things to admire and appreciate whatever you model. All of my models aren't Frisco models, yours don't have to be, either. However, you DID ASK about modeling the SLSF/BN transistion era!

Andre

 

I can certainly understand why Andre feels like he does about the Frisco-BN Transition period! I turned 65 on this 4th of July and was employed in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area with both the Cotton Belt (1967-68) and Santa Fe (1968-76) before I made the move to Germany. I grew up near Carrollton, Texas, where the Frisco crossed the Katy and Cotton Belt. I am partial to these roads as well as the Frisco. It is hard for me to conceive just how many railroads served Dallas in the 1940s for example which also included the Texas Electric Railway interurban and of course streetcars. Lots of rail served Big D as well as Ft. Worth. The D/FW Metro(com)plex is served by BNSF and UP plus a few newcomer shortline and regional operators that do little to impress me. The Ft. Worth & Western for example should have at least used the Frisco´s red-orange and white scheme or even Jenk´s Blue with the Screamin´ Eagle on the flanks of its diesels. The other roads in the area should have used schemes like the Katy´s red to retain part of the heritage in the region.

Regarding the Transition period. Old heads like me have had a problem with the loss of favorite railroads too just like the old old heads did when they saw the decline of the steam locomotive and the diesels starting to invade their happy hunting grounds. On the other hand it is almost impossible to get a younger member of the railfan community to model The Texas Special when he was raised with Amtrak or model Frisco when he had BN running in his back yard. The continued growth of youth in the hobby will replace us old heads and even if it is painful to swallow, they too have a right to belong to frisco.org and follow their Fallen Flag in the Frisco-BN Transition period! They probably don´t care for BNSF either!

I retired off of the Deutsche Bahn last year with a 40 year rail career that spanned Texas and Germany. I saw the fall of the Deutsche Bundesbahn (a well run government operated rail system) and lived it. Old head railroaders were replaced after the 1994 formation of Deutsche Bahn (a farce of a privitized railway) with greenhorns right out of college and tried to tell us old heads how to run a railroad. I got a belly full and retired at 64 despite a loss in my pension. The bull just got too thick! The same thing happened to John Ozanich, a Michigan boy, who retired off of the Grand Trunk Western as an engineer. I met John while we were stationed here in Germany with the US Army in 1966. His dream was to hire out with the GTW and he did. The bull got to him too so he retired about five or six years ago. He built the HO scale Atlantic Great Eastern layout featured in Great Model Railroads magazine and has a live steam railroad on his property in Michigan where he hauls firewood to his home.

I miss the good old days. Switching for the Santa Fe in the old East Dallas Yard was more than a job it was fun! We also switched for the Frisco and Louisiana & Arkansas (KCS) as East Dallas was a joint yard and agency. As the Frisco fell to the BN, the ATSF started to fall before I made the move to Germany in 76. I never could accept the yellowbonnet color scheme. The big yellow "blob" on the right side of the geeps clashed with the large letter S and it looked like crap! Shortly after I left Dallas the Santa Fe started to downsize the operations there and now the place is occupied by DART. Reality hurts, memories survive!

BN wasn´t the only railroad to run off business. Down in Lakeland, Florida, Publix Supermarkets had a private siding that included their own pig ramp in the 60s! It was served by the Atlantic Coast Line. Along came the merger with the Seaboard Air Line creating the new kid on the block, Seaboard Coast Line. SCL rostered boxcars with the slogan "Service Customers Like" to coin in on the SCL reporting marks. Their inability to deliver the pigs on time to Publix so they could get the canned goods or pershabiles unloaded and into the stores became so bad that Publix purchased a fleet of trucks and had the switch to their warehouse removed!

The infamous saying from the New York Central´s Vanderbilt era around the turn of the 20th Century had come full circle. "THE PUBLIC BE ****ED!

I rest my case.

Joe Toth
The Trinity River Bottoms Boomer

 

I will add on to what Andre and Joe said. Yes most young model railroaders these days are one of two era's: Modern or transition with a major railroad like UP, Santa Fe, B&O, any other mass produced road name. I use to be modern era (with some steam mixed in for fun) because ever since I started paying attention to trains all I see is gevo's, gevo's, and more gevo's. Earlier this past week I got lucky and saw two GP38-2's running a local. Well it was from far away and I didn't have my glasses on so I think they were GP38's. One was still wearing Santa Fe paint. But if it wasn't for my grandpa telling me about him seeing the Frisco as a kid around Iantha I would probably be still in modern era and not be on this forum or have meet all the wonderful people on here that I have through this forum.

Ethan

 

I am the same way. There are lots of fantastic models coming out.

I also like to reproduce history. I have lots of great memories chasing Frisco locomotives with BN stencils on them.

 

Rickster:

Though it wouldn't work for me to model the BN/SLSF transistion era, believe it or not, I can understand completely about its attraction to you. I relate to your statement above in view of other "non Frisco" railroads that I, too, enjoy.

Technically, you wouldn't be modeling the Frisco, for it ceased to exist as an entity before the first BN stencil was applied. You would be modeling the BN during the time of its absorption of the Frisco. However, I'm sure your enjoyment of modeling isn't based on semantics, it is guided by what YOU enjoy. IF you think you would enjoy modeling that era of the BN, then obviously, that is exactly what you ought to do.

We're all a bunch of friends here (at least that's the way I feel about this place), that happen to like the Frisco. Though the Frisco is our common meeting point at these forums, I'm sure many of us have modeling "tangents" of interest aside from the Frisco. I know I do. (I like all of the KC area railroads from my childhood years, just happen to like the Frisco the best.)

Thus, I try to post things specific to the Frisco at these forums, though admittedly, I would like to tap into the vast wealth of experience and knowledge that I'm sure exists here, in regards to the other lines that interchanged with the Frisco in KC during the early-mid sixties.

My point being: Wouldn't it be great if there were ONE section of these forums for "off topic/yet related" modeling? This would be where we could discuss subjects that touched the Frisco, yet aren't exactly Frisco specific, such as my KC lines interest, your SLSF into BN interest, the M&A, etc.

Whatever the case, I wish you the very best, and I know you'll do a bang-up job representing that short span of time as the Frisco colors were disappearing.

HOWEVER... I do reserve the "right" to razz you, and otherwise be a pest, about you and your nasty BN!!!

Deal?


Andre "Do You Still Love Me?" Ming

 

Andre,
Ditto; nicely said.

 

Andre, I think all of the Frisco Folk still love you! Railfans, regardless if they are strickly interested in the prototype, modeling, or both, all share a common interest. If it runs on rails, I love it! One area that doesn´t seem to attract the attention I think it should are the rubber tired trains! My photo and slide collection is gone with the wind. It was stolen out of a friend´s house in Dallas when I made the move from Texas to Germany in late 1976. I was as guilty then as a lot of railfans were in that I didn´t shoot the rubber tired trains. If it didn´t have a steel wheel I just ignored it. I now regret that I didn´t photograph the company vehicles or piggyback trailers. If loaded on a pig flat or spotted at a non-rail serviced customer, they would all make for interesting viewing today. I hired out with the Santa Fe in Dallas in September 68, after have been cut off the Cotton Belt extra board for a second time.

The ATSF maintained a five track piggyback facility near Tower 19 in the Trinity River Bottoms. When I worked the 3PM City Job our first move was to head out of East Dallas Yard and pull the pigs. The pigs headed north to Kansas City had to be back in the yard and on the head end of D-400. This freight was due to depart Big D at 4PM and was combined in Gainesville with a train that came up from Ft. Worth. Railroading was still more of a vocation for me, it was sheer fun! My favorite job was lining up the Frisco coal trains behind a trio of red-orange and white SD45s, under a big fat Texas full moon, so they could meet the L&A (KCS) connection for the Texas & Northern shortline that served Lone Star Steel in East Texas! ATSF´s East Dallas Yard was a joint agency for the Frisco and L&A as well! If D-400 didn´t depart Dallas at 4PM sharp there was heck to pay. We hustled to make darn sure it´s caboose markers cleared the north end of the yard at 4. This was railroading at its best and the pride was still there as well!

The yard is gone, the Frisco is gone, the trains are gone. All that is left is a train load of memories. I still understand how you feel about the loss of the Frisco. Growing up in Dallas and having also lived in Tampa, Florida, I have other railroads in my memory bank that I still love and miss. Though the Frisco didn´t serve Tampa, it did maintain an off-line traffic office there. I would visit Ed Bunch, traffic sales agent, and instead of running off a pesky teenager who missed the Frisco in Texas, he took time to talk with me and showed me the secrets of rates and tarrifs. Ed hailed from Amory, Mississippi. He was a Frisco man! He knew the Frisco from the mother road itself, to the AT&N and QA&P! I lost contact with him when I joined the US Army Transportation Corps in 64. Talking with Ed was a great pleasure after so many years. He told me that Publix Supermarkets were a major Frisco shipper and he would try to divide incoming shipments to Lakeland, Florida, from the West or Mid-West, with the ACL and SAL. There was this time when a Florida customer called him and told him he couldn´t accept the shipment as planned so Ed routed the boxcar from Avory, Mississipii, up the Mississippian Railway and back to prevent the car from arriving in Tampa too soon. This was the kind of service the Frisco provided back in the 60s!

This Frisco site is wonderful! Through you Fine Frisco Folks I found Ed again. Retired, 88, still living in Florida, he took early retirement from BN. I talked to him this past Saturday. He didn´t really remember that pesky teenage railfan of 1962-64 but he was so happy to have someone to talk with him about his days on the Frisco. It was railroaders like Ed Bunch, or Cotton Belt agent in Carrollton Texas, Ken Dafft, as well as the many railroaders on the Atlantic Coast Line and Seaboard in Tampa (men and women) that made my best friend, Robert Taff, and myself determined to hire out on the railroad as soon as we could! Robert passed suddenly at age 59 back in 2006 and it left a big empty spot in my heart. We never lost contact with each other, despite my "10,000" miles from home. I would call him from Germany on his days off (he was a locomotive engineer with Agrico Chemical and hauled heck out of phosphate in Florida´s Bone Valley). He was a devoted ALCOhaulic and loved railroading and railroads.

He loved passenger trains, the Frisco´s Kansas City-Florida Special being in the top ten. He was also a Katy fan. He would point out to me the simularity of the striping on the as-delivered GP7s on the Frisco and Katy. He loved the Texas Special as much as he did Seaboard´s Silver Meteor...did I say Meteor...oh well...and Andre, you have the right to razz anyone of us I think. You can razz me all you want! I enjoy the wonderful fellowship the Frisco site has brought me in the short time I have been a member of it. I appreciate the Frisco Folks taking in an old head railroader now living in Germany. (I can speak German with a Texas accent by the way...you DON`T wanna hear that!). My only regret is that I´can´t board Big Bird and attend a Frisco shindig and meet all you gays and gals who share this common interest in railroads, the Frisco First of course, and a warm and respectful friendship that this site does by going above and beyond the call of duty, to keep the memory of the Frisco alive.

To Andea and all others,
A Special Thanks!

Joe Toth
The Trinity River Bottoms Boomer