Hello Frisco Faithful; This is a fact finding post to see how determined you folks are to get an accurate GP7 Black and Yellow engine. I am a frustrated N-scaler that has waited long enough for a manufacturer to come out with a GP7 for N-scale. So, I approached the owner of my LHS and we have decided a special run of an Atlas GP7 in the correct B&Y should be done, first in N then in HO if the N version is a success. Here is why I am here today. I have looked thru hundreds of dated photos of b&y GP7s trying to choose two numbers that had the longest span of the original version paint scheme. One that a modeler could put on his layout from the time the engine was put in service to the time of disposition. I have 3 that I believe fits this description. Road numbers 593, 603 and 614. I would like to know if this is correct. Please prove me right or prove me wrong. To the HO modelers who bought the 2005 Atlas release of the GP7. I know the road numbers should of been higher to match the version; but other than that, was it an accurate model? Anything you would like to see changed? I don't have any particulars on cost yet, but these will be like all special runs, they will cost more than a manufacturer release, mostly because the small run size. We must do a minimum of 300 per road number. I would like to hear from the N-scalers if this would be something they would buy. I don't really want to get stuck with these and my LHS partner will not be too happy since I told him I think we could move them. It has taken me 3 months to convince him, but after several Atlas HO GP7s went for over 200 bucks on Ebay he was convinced the demand might be there. I can't say much more, I use Trainboard and Atlas' forum and this forum and know all too well that if a model isn't accurate then it gets dragged thru the mud. I have heard the line "If they would of only asked us in the know for advice they could of been accurate and correct". Well, I am a Frisco modeler and I am here asking the other Frisco modelers for just that advice. Let me hear it please. Dale Slechta
Dale, Good post. The big issue with the stock Atlas GP7 is the fuel tank. Most of the Frisco GP7s had the small fuel tank. If you look at a lot of the photos, you can barely tell there is a fuel tank there at all. The Atlas version fuel tank is part of the chassis/weight and is almost flush with the side sill. I will take a close look tonight for additional changes but if we live in a perfect world, a more accurate fuel tank would be outstanding. BTW, if you are able to do this, I'll take one of each number. Ship IT on the Frisco! Rick PS Then have someone do a NW-2 Ph IV
Since Atlas came out with RS1s and VO1000s in N scale (black & yellow, and the RS1 even has the AT&N sublettering!), I see no reason they can't do GP7s for Frisco. I'm not sure of the exact number, not having Marre and Harper's fine book in front of me, but IIRC over 120 GP7s were built by EMD for the Frisco. I'd even settle for a Geep in O/W, now that Atlas seems to have nailed the color correctly. In short, my choices for Frisco-decorated GP7s would be either: the as-delivered scheme with the full striping, or the final Mandarin Orange & white version As far as smaller fuel tanks go, I seriously doubt Atlas would provide one- that would be left to us modelers to file down, since that's where the motor usually sits (in the models, that is). I'm still bummed they aren't providing a correct version of the GP15-1 for us and the C&NW folk
I have been doing some studying after Rick commented about the fuel tank. N-scale shouldn't be a problem. Here is a photo of an N-scale GP7 comparing to a Frisco one. The fuel tanks look right to me. What do you all think? The side skirting even matches. Dale
I doubt that Atlas will want to modify the fuel tank. Here is a decent photo from the Motive Power section that illustrates my point. It should be noted that some Frisco GP7s had the larger fuel tanks that were almost flush with the side sill and some were like the unit below. We may have to select numbers for the units with the big fuel tank. Rick
(SEE MY UPDATED POSTING BELOW!) Rick is correct (as usual!). If I am reading my SLSF loco diagrams correctly: SLSF 500-514, 557-563, 565-572, 598-599, all built 2/50-1/52, came with a 1700 gallon fuel tank. SLSF 515-549, 556, 573-597, 619-632, all built 6/50-2/52, came with a smaller 1200 gallon fuel tank. I'd guess 555 also had this tank, but it was wrecked and hence not shown on the diagram. SLSF 600-618, built 2/50-1/52, came with an even smaller 800 gallon fuel tank. So, our Frisco apparently gave us three GP7 tank sizes to deal with! Ken ps: Somewhere on frisco.org, there is a posting listing the Frisco GP7's that made it to the C&NW still in their b/y colors. Those units, obviously, would be among the longer in the GP7 fleet to kept their black dress.
As a follow up to my GP7 posting above, I found my old Art Johnson prints of both the fairly new, and then the wrecked, SLSF 555. From the pre-wreck print, though the tank is in a shadow, it does look like it carried the mid-size tank as was on SLSF 556. SLSF 555 was invloved in a wreck in 1960-61 along with F3A SLSF 5010 - both of them were a mess. 555 had her fuel tank stripped off completely. 555 was the first Frisco diesel to be scrapped. Too bad - that was a neat number! I have wreck pics of 5010 also. She fared little better. I don't know the specifics of the wreck, but it was nasty. Ken
Here is my understanding about the tank sizes from the side to side dimensions. Most of this was gleaned from EMD files and also because I model the U.P. and their GP7s had different sizes also. A steam generator equipped GP7 has its water tank down the middle of the fuel tank and that is why the outside edge of the fuel tank is closer to the skirt. The Frisco had 3 runs of steam generator equipped GP7s; 500-514, 557-572 and 598-618. These fuel tanks were the 1200 gallon ones I believe. Is there any resource that tells us? I have Marre and Harper's Diesel Power book in my lap and can't find any mention about the fuel tank sizes or a break down of them. Any other source? I have a lot of GP7 pictures from lots of angles and can see the differences, but only what looks like 2 sizes, not 3. On page 58 of the book is a good example of the steam generator equipped and a non equipped version. But on the opposite page center no. 627 looks to have a dinky tank, can barely see it. So is the tank on the Atlas HO version one that is flush with the skirt or inset? Dale
Dale - See my postings above and below. The GP7 tank size breakdowns were taken from the Frisco's locomotive diagram books. What better documentation could you want? Ken ps - the Atlas HO GP7 has a tank flush with the frame sill.
Aha! There is more to the SLSF GP7 fuel tank story! My posting above that lists Frisco GP7 fuel tank sizes is correct, BUT (there always seems to be a "but"), these fuel tank sizes reflect the GP7's AFTER the lower numbered units with steam generators had their s/g's removed, and AFTER they had their fuel tank sizes increased to 1700 gallons. After these changes, SLSF 600-618 were the only GP7's that retained their s/g systems, and retained their boiler water tank. I have a copy of Lee Buffington's Frisco Diesel Locomotive Diagram book of August, 1952. The GP7 fleet was shiny new then. This listing will truly reflect the as-built tank sizes for the SLSF GP7's. Dale is correct - there were only two size tanks AS-BUILT, BUT, there were three sizes later as modified. Here's how they came from EMD per Lee's diagrams. As built: SLSF GP7's 500-514, 557-572, 598-618: 800 gallon fuel tank, 800 gallon boiler water tank, 200 gallon lube oil tank, 230 gallon radiator water tank, all built 2/50-1/52. SLSF GP7's 515-549, 555-556, 573-597, 619-632: 1200 gal fuel tank, no boiler water tank, 200 gallon lube oil tank, 230 gallon radiator water tank, all built 6/50-2/52. Thus, when the SLSF pulled out the s/g equipment from those units so affected, they added 900 gal more fuel capacity in lieu of the 800 gal boiler water tank, for a total modified fuel capacity of 1700 gallons. Once again, as always during his time with us, Lee Buffington has the answers! Ken
Dale--Any idea of what the cost of the special run b/y N scale GP-7's will be per unit? I don't want only a single unit--I'd rather have THREE (or four). If I'm going to be greedy, my ideal would be a set of three decorated just like the color cover photo on Maree's "Frisco Diesel Power." Details, weathering and all. The Geeps that wore that modified stripe scheme (Only one chevron on the noses, and "every other" diagonal stripe along walkway) lasted the longest on the Frisco. I vote for that (slightly) modified scheme. There's another photo on page 100 of FDP of unit 534 with the same striping, but the paint job is in better shape. Tom
Good job Ken, glad you have that resource and we have a better answer. Thanks so much. I suppose I should plan on doing the 603 and 614 with the steam generator fuel tank version. The Atlas N-scale phase II version will be spot on. I need to find an Atlas HO version and give it a look to see if it will work. Anyone want to take close up photos of one? I have photographic proof that 614 stayed in the original paint for its lifetime and the 603 I can prove was in original paint in 1969. Thats if the photographer back then put the right date on the picture/slides that I am looking at. I like to be thorough and with 2 or more pictures of proof I feel better. Number 614 still had its tall steam generator stack in 1975. Does anyone have a picture of the roof of the short hood that shows this better. I would like to make a detail part and include it if this plan of mine comes to fruition. Dale Slechta
Why cannot model manufactures just do the general painting of the shell and then include either decals, or transfers, for modelers to add the numbers for whichever unit they want to capture??? This goes for all rolling stock as well.
Yet another posting on GP7 fuel tanks ..... I've looked at a bunch of Frisco GP7 pics tonight. On many, it is hard to see the detail of the tank as that area is dark on a lot of photos. However, I've noticed on several pics that SLSF units that obviously have the steam generator equipment still installed, have the fuel tank that is fully flush with the frame side sill. The ones clearly without s/g, have the tank with a space, or notch, between the tank side-top and the frame sill. That makes some sense. With the s/g, there also is an 800 gal water tank down there underneath the center of the frame. The fuel tank, even though it is only 800 gallons as well, is squished to both sides surrounding the center water tank underneath the locomotive, and every possible space, clear up to the side frame sill, is needed for fuel storage just to get the 800 gal. The geeps without the s/g have a tank that was able to fully utilize the underneath space between the trucks, and hence, the tank sides do not need to come clear up to the frame sill, even though it is a much bigger tank - 1200 gallons. Just a theory, but several pics seem to confirm. Thus, the Atlas HO GP7 model has a tank configuration that requires it to be a s/g equipped geep if I'm correct. Anybody else have any thoughts? Ken
Dale - While looking at SLSF GP7 pics tonight, I noticed the following units were still in their black/yellow garb when they were sold off to the C&NW at the end of their Frisco service life (1976). Thus these four are certainly candidates for the "longest lasting GP7 in SLSF black/yellow attire" award: SLSF 509 SLSF 533 SLSF 573 SLSF 586 There may have been others as well. Ken
I like the idea of getting more black units but then we have the decision of whether to get them in the "as-delivered" scheme with all the striping or the later version(s) with fewer stripes. Maybe I want three of each . . . . What do you guys think? Ken, you are the expert here with your Roster Tales from years gone by. Ship IT on the Frisco! Rick
I started this venture for my own personal modeling needs to get a correct GP7 that fit the 1952-1955 era. At the OKC train show I was told by Paul Graf of Atlas that his company will never make a black and yellow frisco GP7 again. Seems they took some heat over the numbers being off and the font too thick on the lettering. He was pretty adament about it...and for sure they were not going to do them in N scale. Back in my younger years of modeling, I could paint and decal cars by the dozen but when it came to the chevron decals on an N scale GP7.....forget it! Now in my present modeling I want to buy it off the shelf and have it correct. I was asking my LHS a few weeks ago if he had a custom painter and then we got to discussing pad printing for the ultra detail of the paint. He said a special run might be the way to go. That is what started all of this. My task in this venture is to find a couple of numbers that I wanted and to pick the era and that meant the paint scheme. The smart move business wise is to do a couple of engines that fit the longest time period. Therefore, the research of which you folks are a part of with this thread. I ask you...what is better than a Frisco GP7 that has a paint scheme that it had from the time it came on the property till the time it left? I can PROTOTYPICALLY run it on my 1953 layout and someone else could run it on his 1964 or 1972 layout. So now you know my reasoning behind this decision. The feelers are out now to see if this venture is feasable or not. 300 of one road number means I have to find 299 other Frisco modelers that want this engine. I am not going to invest in something that will cause me to loose money. I thought it might be nice to help other Frisco modelers get what we want for once. I am tired of waiting this many years for a manufacturer to do it for us. Thanks for listening, I'm just putting my cards on the table so you folks can see what I am trying to accomplish. Dale Slechta
Dale - Gee!, I hope I'm not one of the guys who ticked off Atlas! I love 'em. I'm am always complaining about fonts, but I don't recall being very critical of the Atlas GP7 at all. The Frisco hood-side font on it is fine; the cab-side number font is too thick, so I'm sure I mentioned that. But, overall I've been very positive about Atlas and love that they are doing many Frisco models - and having success with them. I buy 'em, even their very well done red/orange & white units, even though I'm a b/y Frisco guy! It's obvious that they do listen to their critics, however, as they did a nice job on the b/y Frisco RS-1, and did the cab-side number font very well on it. Rick - Ah yes, Roster Tales! That was a fun column to write, even though sometimes Alan and I bickered over some things. We did have a good run. I currently have five HO Frisco GP7's. Two are the Atlas models, still in the box, both in the as-delivered full striping. The other three are from Andre Ming, which he did based on the Front Range model. Two of those are in the full stripes decor, one in the later fewer stripes decor. So, I have four in full, one in later stripes. Therefore, I'd probably be interested in only one, maybe two, of these new special run GP7's if we can get them done, in the later "fewer" stripes decor. If so, I'd probably sell off a couple of the full-stripers I have as I can't see the need for six or seven GP7's, neat though they may be. My wife keeps asking how many locomotives do I really need, since I have no layout to speak of. I really don't have any good answers! Ken
Dale, if the minimum is 300 of one number, it might be best to do un-numbered. As an Nscaler, I just fear the numberboards. Maybe a run of each scheme without number would be the best route? However, I am doing 1980 so don't know that I need one. Well, maybe one. Also, everyone please try to remind Dale what scale you are expressing interest in.
Dale, I would sure like to know who told the Atlas folks that the black/yellow GP7s were not correct. I am probably among the top ten pickiest Frisco modelers around. I preordered mine and run them all the time. I was glad to get them despite the fuel tank. If there is anything wrong with the lettering, I missed it. There are a few Frisco models on the market that I have avoided but the GP7s was not in the group. I second Steve's idea for an unnumbered (HO) model instead of the prenumbered units. I have had a great deal of success with the Accurail decal system which includes the decal background matching the car color (black panel side hoppers). Those decals are pretty nice and maybe we could get a decal maker to do those for us. Depending upon their delivery date I might take more than three. That ought to help the Atlas folks out, I would think, and reduce the overall number to 300 in N scale and 300 in HO. Frisco Faster Freight! Rick PS We could probably get a decal maker to do the numberboard numbers too, even in N scale. Steve, do not be afraid.
