Frisco -BN Transition Period (1981-1983) Modeling

gla1975:

Speaking of the lower portion of the Frisco:

Wife and I were in Millerton, OK in the mid-70's holding a revival at a small country church. We were housed in a small RV (that had a WONDERFUL airconditioner that worked GREAT in that hot and muggy climate) which sat right next to the church, which sat next to the tracks of the Frisco's Hugo-Hope line. I could not believe the amount of traffic on that line! Trains would come storming by several times a day and night! It was great seeing solid consists of GP7's in orange and white and black & yellow hauling woodchips, pulp, lumber products, et al.

IF you like that area and IF you like traffic: It would have far more traffic during the Frisco days than the Kiamichi days.

FWIW: I used to often work the Nashville Sub (former KCS branch) for Watco. We interchanged at Ashdown with the KCS. We had to cross the Kiamichi (Frisco) Hope line to get to the KCS yard. We also would often have joint track & time with a Kiamichi train to share the yard. One night our train, and the Kiamchi train, was held out on account of a parade of KCS freights. We were invited over to the Kiamichi depot (old Frisco depot) to get out of the heat and pass some time. We must have spent 3-4 hours talkin' railroading with the Kiamichi crews there. Over all, my impression of that area down there was that it was very "down home" and a different flavor of railroading that was up in my neck of the woods. Neat experiences down there.

Andre

 

Once upon a time, there was a plan to develop the Frisco from St. Louis to Paris, Texas, into a through route to Dallas with the Santa Fe. The ATSF installed bridges on the Paris Branch to accept a second track (double track!) to handle the increased business. Regretfully, it never materialized. When I hired out on the Santa Fe in 1968 and started switching in the East Dallas Yard I would still hear the stories from the Old Heads. The idea was to compete with the Missouri Pacific and Cotton Belt for time freight from the St. Louis Gateway to the Dallas area. Had the line been placed in service it most certainly would have given the Cotton Belt´s famous Blue Streak Merchandise freights a run for their money!

Though not Frisco related, Fred Frailey´s book on the Blue Streak Merchandise (Kalmbach Publications) is still a good read to understand the importance of the St. Louis-Texas freight corridor and consider how it might have given the Frisco a more important roll in the movement of high speed overnight freight service from the Eastern freight carriers via St. Louis to the North Texas market. I hired out with Cotton Belt in 1967 after a three year hitch with the 49th Transportation Group in the US Army Transportation Corps in Germany and though SP had consolidated SSW Dallas operations with its own at Miller Yard in far South Dallas, we still had to hustle to switch out the pigs and spot them at the pig ramp located on the north end of the yard. There was, even at this late date, a silent pride among most of the railroaders, to get the job done as quick as safety rules permitted and professionally.

I wonder if this exisits today under Union Pacific´s operations?

Joe Toth
The Trinity River Bottoms Boomer

 

Anyone here know what Burlington Northern power first 'invaded' the Monet-Witchita line? Were there BNGP38's? GP20's? SD9's? SD40-2's? Others?

Thanks!
-Pete

 

Pete:

Though I can't answer authoritatively, I can tell you what was seen on the Fort Smith Sub, which was also not a full blown "main line" the same as the line you mention.

After the BN took over, it wasn't long and older GP7's and GP9's (and that sort of thing) was seen in Fort Smith. Also saw GP20's. Soon enough, repainted GP15's began to be seen as well. Seeing GP7's and GP9's again (they were gone from the FS Sub toward the end of the Frisco era) was somewhat of a bitter-sweet experience (I liked the old high hood Geeps)... but wasn't near enough to offset the loss of the Frisco.

 

Hopefully others will weigh in here, but I believe that in general motive power that was Frisco and serviced in Springfield remained there, at least at first. The Wichita Sub was 100% 4 axle power after one of the SD45's went on the ground in Andover so SD9's and SD40-2's were definitely out. Also the BN pulled the diamond at Augusta severing the line for direct access to Wichita from the East. The only significant on-line revenue producers West of Fredonia were the CO-OP's in Leon and Severy and a pole distributor that set up shop in Beaumont.

 

I just discovered an interesting fact and that being that Overland is producing 4 road numbers of the International Car Co. Wide Vision Caboose in what one could call post-merger paint and lettering. One version with 2 road numbers will be in Frisco O&W paint with BN stenciling.

SLSF #1270 BN#11598
SLSF #1172 BN#11600

http://www.overlandmodels.com/showroom.php?scale=4

The other version will also be available in 2 road numbers will be in BN paint with the side windows blanked in but retaining the split window cupola.

SLSF #1276 BN#11604
SLSF #1279 BN#11607

http://www.overlandmodels.com/showroom.php?scale=4

Rick, the last time I checked Peanut Butter was still available in 5 lb. buckets!

 

I was working at Carthage on the MP during the time you reference. I was on a traveling switch engine and we would cross the former Frisco line several times during the day. I don't recall any immediate invasion by Cascade Green units. It was pretty much business as usual, except for the patch jobs that came with the engine renumberings. By 1983 there might have been some BN GP38's, but I wouldn't bet very much money on it. BN cabooses were beginning to displace some Frisco cabs at this time as well.

 

Any of youse guys interested in this? http://www.fobnr.org/

Tom

 

The book offering "BN-Frisco:A Tough Merger" by the FOBNR might be an interesting read. Has it been reviewed here at Frisco.org?

The book "The Nation Pays Again" which analized the fall of the Milwaukee Road went into a second printing. Another tail of mis-management that put a bunch of good railroaders out of work. Though not Frisco talk (this is why I wanted "The Rip Track") the Milwaukee Road´s Western Extention should have been sold to regional railroads to handle freight traffic and the transcontinental Amtrak business thus freeing the BN for dedicated freight service.

Trains Magazine routinly publishes maps of Fallen Flag railroads with the current status of the lines. Have they published one on the Frisco or is there one here at Frisco.org? Sure would be interesting!

How much freight was interchanged at Kansas City between the Frisco and MILW? Before and after the Western Extention shut-down when the MILW had been reduced to the Twin Cities-KC line is understood.

Joe Toth

 

There was a term to describe management at BN at the time as being "Frisco Mafia? Didn't this have somethng to do with their having come from the Frisco in first place, cleaned house at BN and then set out to buy what they had already straightened out at the Frisco? If this is true everyone wins except the paint shop? On the otherhand I can only wish BNSF had heritage locomotves such as UP. UP knows where they came from in history while BN&SF just allows Santa Fe colors. I was against a Athearn Heritage locomotve but if BN&SF came out with somethng in Frisco colors would feel some vindication. Anyone thought about aproachng BN&SF along those lines? I'm winded. I've shut up

Rcky Mathews

 

Ricky and All:

If the BNSF came out with a Frisco Heritage unit I would immediately request of Athearn that they produce it if they had it in their product line. I have learned from doing some research that there is a difference between the desirability (aka sales potential) of a Heritage" scheme vs. a "Fantasy" scheme and I sincerely hope we can just leave it at that.

 

Thanks Bob!
Not speaking highly medicated at moment this might be somethng to look into if knew rest of railroads BN&SF ate. Would think the most ardent hater of orange and white mght yet like it on an SD70! Much Thanks Bob,

Ricky|-|

 

UP´s heritage program is a very good PR product. They did do a terrible job with the Katy scheme though. If the Mop was still with us the scheme UP came up with would be really cool. I wonder how the trade-mark thing at UP got so out of hand? The UP, through its ownership of the Union Pacific, Denver & Gulf in the 1890s, having acquired the Denver & New Orleans, even controlled the Ft. Worth & Denver! The Texas laws required that the FW&D remain independent but the UP did invade Cowtown way back yonder! Do they then have rights to the FW&D in regards to the trade-mark issue? Wonder what BNSF would say?

My thoughts on Frisco.org proposing a Frisco fantasy scheme be taken to Athearn was and remains the fact that they have already run some fantasy schemes themselves and in the event they were to consider doing the Frisco in their program it should be done right. It would be a pity to see them release either black & yellow or red & white units and not be correct. I was NOT pushing for a fantasy scheme and it still appears no one has fully understood what I meant in the first place.

Again I stress that in the event Athearn DOES release a Frisco fantasy model and it doesn´t appeal to the members please remember that I tried to get Frisco.org contact Athearn to inform them that if they do decide to include the Frisco in this program to please let Frisco.org design the scheme to insure that it is in the best interest of this organization.

The same applies to BNSF as well! Look at the Katy heritage unit at UP. I was raised near the Katy and Frisco and Cotton Belt and this unit that represents the Katy is one that in no way reminds me of this great fallen flag. The SP scheme is as worse. I
believe model railroaders could have proposed more realistic and attractive schemes to represent these fallen flags of the railroads they lost under a coat of Armour Yellow.

You can only hope BNSF will do better IF they decide to operate a heritage fleet with the Frisco. Athearn´s GN fantasy scheme in Big Sky Blue is pretty neat. Wonder what BNSF would come up with? At any rate, now is the time for Frisco.org to contact BNSF with a proposal in the event they do decide to follow UP down heritage lane before they put such a program into motion.

UP should have contacted the various historical societies when they decided to hit the road with their heritage program. BNSF should too!

Joe Toth

 

When BN was created I was switching for John Santa Fe in Dallas. Early BN was interesting in many ways. All the rainbow diesels that came south on the Ft. Worth & Denver and even the wood (!) WFEX reefers that traded the new image Rocky the Goat for the billboard size BN herald was neat. My "love" though were the pre-merger wood stock cars with plywood lining and Coopered doors for grain loading. We had rows of grain growing between the yard tracks in the old East Dallas Yard!

By the time BN drew in the Frisco flag I was living here in Germany. It went against my "grain" having been raised on the Frisco in Farmers Branch, Texas. It still does! It must be remembered that the Frisco Folks aren´t alone in the Fallen Flag right-of-way of tears. I never cared for the Santa Fe´s Yellowbonnet image or the Katy´s green machines. Somehow, I accepted the Frisco´s new image red and white though not on the caboose fleet. They should have stayed tuscan red!

Like it or not, the BN and BNSF have replaced what was a darn good All American Apple Pie railroad. The younger generation is stuck with modeling carriers they grew up with and should still be welcomed into this fine organization without being "put down" just because they don´t understand some of the old heads with Frisco blood flowing in their veins. I could even acquire an interest in the roads operating former Frisco lines if they painted their diesel fleet in black and yellow or red and white. The EMD started the red and white scheme when they released the GP35/DD35 demos. Even the Colorado & Wyoming adopted the scheme and oddly enough had even used a black and yellow scheme on their diesels albeit a different design!

Joe Toth

 

Nice find Bob. I did not see them on the website and Brian hasn't sent any emails lately. I think I still have time to get these on order. Peanut Butter is sooooooooooooo good. Gonna need a truck load.

 

I may have to go to Ramen noodles.

 

I have already been reduced to Potted Meat and Saltines.