E8A As-Delivered Paint Schemes

Discussion in 'E8A' started by Rick McClellan, Sep 13, 2009.

  1. Rick McClellan

    Rick McClellan 2009 Engineer of the Year

    In our slide show Saturday night, Andre Ming asked about the E8A paint schemes. We had some disagreement over the initial paint scheme regarding the cat whiskers and whether they had a white outline or not. I think Keith Robinson was saying the initial scheme had the white outline and I was thinking just the opposite.

    Well, in my never ending search for truth (and justice for all) I did a little research. It turns out we were both right.

    1. Frisco Power (Collias) indicates on page 226 and 234 that the 17 E8As were all delivered with the white outline whiskers. Unfortunately, he does not provide a caption to photo of six brand spanking new E8As on page 234 with no white outline. This is a rather obvious company photo of what appears to be brand new units with no white outline. The units on the head end were 2010, 2015 and 2011. They sure do look "as-delivered."

    2. FMIG April 1985 Issue 42 The Paint Shop by Mike Condren (page 7) sez that "gold cat whiskers scheme as delivered on the first 10 E8As." He includes a Vanishing Vistas photo of 2015 as photo evidence. The first 10 units were numbered 2006-2015.

    Mike Condren goes on to say that the second order, units 2016-2022, had the white outlined cat whiskers on units delivered directly from EMD. The white outline was thought to improve the visibility of the gold stripes and cat whiskers.

    3. Mainline Modeler October 1984 by Bruce Meyer stated on page 80 that the first 10 E8As were delivered in the gold only cat whiskers followed by the second order delivered with the white outlined cat whiskers.

    There you have it, both answers were correct but depended upon the specific E8A you were asking about.

    Ship IT on the Frisco!

  2. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    I have researched this question myself, and I believe Rick has it explained correctly. The "gold only" E's eventually came back into the shop and received their white outlines later.

    They also all originally had blue background coonskins on the nose. Switched to black later as the blue did not weather well.

  3. Steve40cal

    Steve40cal Member

    I seem to remember reading that the E units were delivered without the white trim and had the white band applied around the gold because black and white photography (remember this was the 1950s) did not show much of a difference between the red and gold colors thus the beautiful paint scheme in color looked almost like one solid color in black and white. I'm sure Frisco's company photographer instigated the application of the white trim. I miss the Frisco!! Steve.
  4. yardmaster

    yardmaster Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    As a kid, I purchased a post card of #2015 at LaGrange IL in early 1950 awaiting delivery to the Frisco; it has gold whiskers with no white outline. I believe this same photo was included in the back of the Frisco Museum's later edition of Frisco Power.

    Best Regards,
  5. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    You can tell which engines had the factory white outlines and which had the "aftermarket" outlines added by the Frisco--The engines that Frisco added the lines to seem to have slightly "fatter" cat whiskers. This doesn't include the E-7's that were remodeled to look like E-8's.

    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2009
  6. HWB

    HWB FRISCO.org Supporter

    Me too
  7. Iantha_Branch

    Iantha_Branch Member

    I've looked at pitures of E8's with and with out and I can see that the white is there, but I don't notice it much.
  8. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Remember, the white outlines were applied only to the gold stripes, numbers and lettering. Once the Frisco switched the gold to "Deluxe Gold" (yellow), they dropped the white outlines. The original gold didn't weather very well.

    As others have suggested, the white outlines were applied around the gold to improve visibility for safety reasons, and, importantly for the times, to make the units look better in b/w photographs.

  9. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Note the neat delivery photo of SLSF 2014, Truxton, as published on the front cover of Richard Napper's The Meteor issue #3. This is a classic view of the Feb, 1950 as-delivered red & gold paint scheme on the early Racehorse E8's. Note how you can barely read the side lettering and numbers on this b/w picture. Early on, the Frisco decided to retro-apply the white outlines to the gold lettering, numbers and stripes to improve visibility in real life and in b/w pictures.

    The last few E8's not yet delivered had the white striping applied at EMD. The Frisco applied the white stripes to the units already delivered, plus on the E7's that were being modified to the "Racehorse" scheme.

  10. Iantha_Branch

    Iantha_Branch Member

    That's what I noticed also.
  11. splitwindow

    splitwindow Member

    Photos of the Frisco E8's that I did as an exclusive with Key Models last year.
    Click on the Thumbnails to enlarge them.
    Roger Lewis
    Wasatch Model company

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 8, 2011
  12. FRISCO4503

    FRISCO4503 FRISCO4503 Frisco.org Supporter

    It certainly would be nice to own a few of these. Are there any available?
  13. splitwindow

    splitwindow Member

    I only built 8 of the E7's and E8's and only to known reservations. Too expensive to built for inventory. Each unit was unique. I have "Jet Pilot" and "Steel Dust" and I'm a retired airline pilot.

  14. FRISCO4503

    FRISCO4503 FRISCO4503 Frisco.org Supporter

    Thanks for letting me know Roger. They are absolutely beautiful models.
  15. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    Nicely rendered model of arguably the best passenger livery to grace a diesel locomotive. Please allow one nit pick; shouldn't the portholes be trimmed in Metalli-Chrome Dupont Duco (gold)?
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2011
  16. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Another small "nit pick" regarding SLSF 2003 above - as it is an "as-delivered" paint scheme, it should have a royal blue coonskin on the nose rather than a black one.

  17. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    One other thing I find interesting on the neat model of SLSF 2003 "Steel Dust" above ..... notice the E7 vertical grill just behind the cab door. Rather than the normal 4-ft tall vertical E7 grill partially covered by the addition of an "E8" stainless body grill up at its top half, the model has only a small rectangular grill mounted below the stainless grill with no opening behind the stainless E8 body grill above.

    All of the Frisco E7's, when they were receiving the "Racehorse" scheme during their redecoration to better resemble the new E8's, kept the 4-ft tall E7 vent grill behind the cab, and simply covered it over on its top half with the new long stainless E8 body grill.

    When I noticed the small rectangular grill instead on the model, my reaction was "hmmm, that's not right". But, after talking about it with another frisco.org member, and then researching it using my pictures, guess what! SLSF 2000, 2003 and 2005, at least, did indeed receive a modification later in their life replacing the tall 4-ft E7 grill with this small rectangular grill mounted just as shown on the model.

    One of the weaknesses with EMD's cab units, both F's and E's, was that the side body panels, which were sheet metal over plywood and just sat in a frame and were not part of the supporting structure of the car body, deteriorated over time and needed to be replaced. I'm wagering EMD came up with a replacement panel for this part of the E7 body with just a small rectangular opening on its bottom half.

    So, as a "technical nit", since the 2003 model shows it in its new, as-delivered scheme, it should not carry the small rectangular vent instead of the tall 4 ft one. But, for sure, 2003, and at least two other Frisco E7's, did carry just such a side panel later in its life.

    I learn something new every day! Never noticed this before.

    These "nits" are just fine points - the 2003 model looks spectacular, and shows yet again what a neat paint scheme the Racehorse livery was.

    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2011
  18. klrwhizkid

    klrwhizkid Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    I found these images of the original EMD Sytling and Painting Sheet for Frisco EA8s, Part #8159004, somewhere (I don't remember now) as electronic images. These can be helpful because they (it) documents the original and subsequent changes as well as the specified colors. There were/are apparently more style sheets out there just for the details on these locomotives.

    Attached Files:

  19. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    Nice find Keith! Thankfully there are factory models available. These engines would be a bearcat to paint and decal, although some modelers have done it pretty well.

  20. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Keith - You have posted copies of segments of the EMD painting diagram # 8159004 for the Frisco E8's, as revised in May/June 1950, to reflect the addition of the white stripes around the lettering, numbers, and stripes fo the E8's, which were originally gold with no white stripes. The original painting diagram (gold only) was approved in January, 1950, with the revisions to include the white striping coming six months later. Note at this time, the nose coonskin medallion was still done in Duco blue. This drawing obviously shows E8 SLSF 2006, Traveller.

    There is another painting diagram, this one done by the Frisco, SLSF dwg # 512A16226, as revised in April, 1950, which shows the revised painting to be done to the Frisco E7 conversions to the "racehorse look", also including white stripes around the lettering, numbers, and striping. This also shows the blue Frisco cooonskin medallion. The subject on the drawing is E7 SLSF 2002, Comanche, but I'm sure the Frisco applied the same details to the already delivered gold stripes-only E8's when they added to white stripes to them. Perhaps there is another drawing for this as-delivered E8 task, but I've never seen it.

    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 28, 2012

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