Re: Athearn Woes Folks, please, let's focus on the positive and minimize the negative. Let's keep our comments constructive and supportive lest the Frisco nation is seen as political and negative by manufacturers. While I will admit that nearly ever company will/or may have issues from time to time, in no case have I ever felt that the issue resulted in a situation that was not able to be overcome, either by me or the manufacturer. I am supportive of anyone that shows a willingness to provide product and shows an effort to continuously improve.
Re: Athearn Woes I don't think we should "not report" something about a model manufacturer if it needs to be reported! If there's a real complaint or problem about a model or the poor treatment from a maufacturer, it should be brought out in to the open and let the chips fly where they may. I don't think we should be rah rah cheerleaders just because we're afraid a manufacturer won't bring out our favorite model. The maufacturers should be made aware of problems, so there wouldn't be complaints! Tom
Re: Athearn Woes Tom, I probably did not communicate effectively. It is important that we point out things that can be improved - it is part of the continuous improvement process. My point is that we should be mindful of the "tone" of our discussions - that they should be worded in a manner that is recognized as constructive.
Re: Athearn Woes To All: If anyone interprets my post as "being political" or bashing or criticizing a manufacturer in any way, I sincerely apologize. As many of you know, I have built what I feel to be a positive and constructive relationship with several manufacturers and my track record for getting new models that are the prototypically correct speaks for itself. I fully realize that we also need to be positive and constructive on this forum, so I wouldn't do or say anything to portray anything different. Joseph merely asked for an opinion and I gave a factual answer of an encounter that I had with Kato just as I did concerning my talks with Stewart about the handrails on the U25b. On second thought, I just wish I would have let it be.
Re: Athearn Woes Here is what I think: Athearn has done a terrific job on getting the details up to, and above par. I was very impressed by the SD40-2 and SD45 they put out versus the GP35 and GP40-2. What does not impress me is the drive train. Ya I know they have added DCC ready and directional lighting but the drive train still gives me issues. In fact it's what's keeping my Frisco 6-axle's side lined. Ethan
Re: Athearn Woes Ethan, Just what issues do you have with the drive train in Athearns? I own Hundreds of them, and everyone works just fine with the original motors, and some of them have been converted to DCC and Sound. I have old blue boxes, new blue boxes and Genesis. The only thing I hate is the new genesis Handrails which I think are crap.
Re: Athearn Woes Here's this issues I have: Noise, and not smooth. And it's not the decoder. My SD45 has had two completly different brands of decoders and I have tweaked the CV's but still give's me trouble. The SD40-2 does it also. My SD45 I can put at speed step 12 of 28 and it will set there for a few seconds then take off like a rocket. No momentum setting on and it does this both with the NCE decoder and the TCS decoder. Ethan
Re: Athearn Woes Assured, I do not want to take any political issues regarding model railroading in general. On the other hand, I cannot afford nor do I want to purchase a product of inferior quality. As prices in all sectors continue to rise I must be careful with my investments, be they food, health care or my hobby. The issues with the problem of gears in the locomotives of several manufacturers seems to be critical enough that it must be brought forward so modelers will be made aware that the problems do exist. Please don´t praise a manufacturer just because he might not be inclined to include the Frisco in a future run of locomotives! All manufacturers have an obligation to produce a product that will withstand the test of time. If I purchase a current model and it does not meet the quality that is included in the pre-production advertising then I feel like I have been ripped off. It is as simple as that! All products should be put through rugged testing before they are released for sales, PERIOD! If anyone is content to put out hard earned dollars for an inferior product and not make it known to the modelers who are considering a purchase of this product as well, then there is no point inconducting these forums in the first place. This isn´t an issue of politics but a clear cut case on the part of manufacturers not to properly test their products before they are shipped to the hobby shops who must then listen to dissatisfied customers because the products do not live up to the advertising promises that were released well in advance of these products. Proper action on the part of the manufacturers would be to announce a delay in the product in question pending unforseen production problems! Model Railroad News magazine is a publication that tries to present an honest evaluation of all products that they test themselves and then report the results to their readers without fear of being severely critizied by manufacturer or modeler alike. This isn´t politics but providing the utmost honest reviews and remaining netural as to not deliberately offend any manufacturer´s good name. True, problems will continue to crop up but they must be reported just the same. If they aren´t then don´t expect an improved product! Positive feedback is what makes a democracy work. I am sure that Athearn, Walthers and the other respected manufacturers are not deliberately flooding the market with inferior quality products but all must work hard to insure that the problems do not continue to plague the hobby and send the wrong message across the board. I thought this was part of the formation of The World´s Greatest Hobby to oversee a continued growth of model railroading when the hobby is competing with video games and other hobbies that seem to entertain our young people and not give them the satisfaction of constructing a layout and using their skills to build something with their hands instead of danger of finger rot and loss of eyesight after spending countless hours in front of some computer! Frisco Folks and all other model railroaders should work together to continue to promote our hobby and report in a friendly and intelligent way the shortcomings of inferior products to the manufacturers to insure that proper quality control is conducted in the development and manufacture of model railroad products! In closing, are all of us at Frisco.org prepared to present to the manufacturers an open letter of intent to purchase a specific model if they release it in the Frisco livery to guarentee a sales return on that model? This should be discussed on this forum to see what the interest is and then perhaps the open letter can be presented to the chosen manufacturer for consideration. Be it returned and rejected it can then be sent to another interested party. Joseph Toth
Re: Athearn Woes Ethan, Perhapes you have already done this, but Any Athearn should be torn down completely and cleaned. Check that all gears do not have burrs on them. Make sure the motor does not have excessive play, if so put in shimming washers. Check for binds anywhere in the drive train and fix them if found. Lightly oil the bearings and gears, they are engineering plastic and do not need much lubrication. I do this with anyone's locomotive, the idea being if it will not run correctly on DC; it will not run any better on DCC. Hope this helps.
Re: Athearn Woes Folks we may as well face the facts, Athearn, Atlas, Life Like, Kato, and Bachmann all have had issues since they started outsourcing their products to China. We will just have to either deal with it, or ride the companies harder until they finally understand what "Consumer Satisfaction" means. I'm sure if they start losing sales things will change in a hurry. FriscoGeorge
Re: Athearn Woes While we certainly have good reason and the right to complain to our model suppliers about various issues most of them have with their drives, let's not lose sight of the fact that all of them are doing a terrific job today with their body shells, painting and decoration. These things today look so much better than what I grew up with in this hobby that it is not an issue with me if they have a few small errors. And .... of all things ..... they even do Frisco models now and then! And, they notice that they sell well, so they keep doing them. No more days of everything being ATSF, PRR, GN, SP, CB&Q, etc or, for us, undec! Ken
Re: Athearn Woes Most of the model manufacturers do a good job all in all getting model railroad products to market to suit the modeler/consumer, but if somebody has a business that includes importing, it's still up to the owners of the business to get the product "out there." If there's a "communication" problem, they might need to hire some language translators. Just because a product is manufactured in an "exotic foreign land," we the consumers shouldn't have to "deal with it" because the product is imported or "outsourced." A manufacturer has to listen to legitimate consumer complaints and address them. Tom
Re: Athearn Woes After reading all the posts concerning the gear problems with Athearn and Proto 2000 models it is indeed very interesting to see that the manufacturers do seem to care about the quality of their products and are working to solve same. The problems are not the fault of the Chinese since they only manufacture what is presented to them to produce. It appears that better product development inititive plans are the answer to produce higher quality models and I am convinced that this is being brought forth at board meetings at Athearn, Bachmann, Walthers as well as other manufacturers. The Chinese are wonderful people. I helped many who vacationed Germany in the 20 years that I was employed with the German Railway at the Nuremberg station as a passenger service represenative. A railfan group from China who had visited the German Transport Museum in Nuremberg several years ago left with a trainload of memories and one man asked if it would be possible to obtain a copy of the Deutsche Bahn´s Official Guide. We were able to secure one on short notice and the expression on his face remains with me to this day! Bachmann´s VP of Product Development, Lee Riley, has introduced model railroading to the Chinese with beautfiful HO scale models of locomotives and equipment patterned after Chinese Railway prototypes and sales continue to climb. In the US "The World´s Greatest Hobby" promotion as well as Thomas the Tank Engine have done wonders to promote the model railroad industry and open the way for adults and children alike to develop their skills and build a layout. Model railroading is now a Family Thing and not hid away in an attic or basement that papa is ashamed to share with anyone outside his own family members! True, problems will continue to surface. It is that way in a modern high tech society that is global. I regret I didn´t get to take a tour of China to witness the double headed 2-10-2s pounding upgrade on the newly built mainline through Mongolia. I won´t be able to ride their new high altitude line to Tibet either. No politics, just a great train ride! American railfans can only dream of a line like that from say Chicago to Seattle over the old Milwaukee Road! And me? Well, if I had the capitol I would love to operate a new Texas Special from a restored St. Louis Union Station to a newly constructed replica of the Katy´s San Antonio depot! Wonder if the Chinese can build me 1:1 scale E7s and Pullman-Standard passenger cars? Now, do you think those Frisco and Katy heralds on the E7s wouldn´t shine with pride again? Joe Toth The Trinity River Bottoms Boomer
Re: Athearn Woes It's funny that this thread popped again, as I had a slow night here in Union Missouri and drove around thinking about my layout operations for this fall and what I plan to do with the pesky GP35. The GP35 has ran great this summer. No growling, but that was probably because my garage has stayed in the mid 70's to upper 80's for most of the time. I haven't spent the money or taken the time to apply the Labelle oil that Keith and others recommended last spring. It's just not a priority right now, although I still plan on it and would like to see it done before the weather starts cooling down. If it continues growling after applying the Labelle oil, I plan to reassign it to "once a week" duties on the Salem Branch. The Cary Body GP7 w/Athearn BB drivetrain that I purchased last year from Greg Stout will assume local duties on the mainline. I too want to avoid political discussions, but I feel compelled to say that there is a small sense of patriotism when I purchase something for my layout that's made in the USA. Not to endorse any particular product, but we are also fortunate to have some great stuff manufactured right here in the midwest (i.e. Blair Line, Woodland Scenics, and Micro Engineering). It does me some personal satisfaction to purchase products from these manufacturers and support my local economy whenever possible, although I'm not opposed to buying items from their competitors either. I have to say that I am disappointed with the Accurail kits that I've bought over the past few years. Everyone I've purchased either leans heavily to one side or the other, or doesn't have free rolling wheels. What's most disappointing to me is the fact that they're made in the USA, and therefore, I expect better. Maybe it's just me, but I never had that kind of problem with Athearn kits. I would love to purchase kits from Accurail, as they're inexpensive and look decent, but I've had so much trouble with them that I just won't chance it anymore. Back to Athearn locomotives: They have their occasional problems, but for my money, they're one of the best values on the market and they definitely fit my meager budget. I see myself an Athearn customer for years to come. There are great products manufactured all around the globe and I will buy to suit my preference and budget. Pat Moreland, Union Mo.
Re: Athearn Woes In our high tech modernized globalized world it is hard not to include some form of "politics" in any forum, be it model railroading or otherwise. Many excellent books on railroads continue to be released and more and more are being printed in China. TLC is a small publisher in Virginai I believe it is and their books are proudly printed in the USA (at least they were at my last look) and at reasonable prices. There are still a lot of "Mom & Pop" manufacturers in the United States who manufacture quality products. Kadee´s fantastic HO plastic freight car line, OK Engines´ aluminum passenger cars in both HO and O scale, LaBelle´s beautiful all wood kits, freight and passenger and interurban too, also in HO and O scale. The list goes on and on. Like the famous slogan the Great Northern used in the Golden Age of Railroading to persuade American´s to vacation in the USA instead of that cruise to Europe and other exotic places on earth..."SEE AMERICA FIRST"...the same thing can apply to our trains now in the 21st Century as well! Joe Toth
Re: Athearn Woes Back tracking to the 1970s most of the guys I knew who modeled in HO had most of their rolling stock equipped with the Central Valley trucks. They were considered THE very best despite being generic in design. Times change of course. Many modelers want prototype specific trucks on their equipment now. More and more web sites, like the Southern Pacific H&TS, have so much information on the equipment and truck styles used be it freight or passenger including the Daylight train and more and more prototypical trucks are being produced as well. There are a good number of manufacturers who produce trucks in HO scale and the ones that come with the equipment (kit or ready to run) are removed and replaced with ones that better portray a specific car. The removed trucks can be weathered and used as scenic detail in rail yards (e.i. RIP tracks), junk yards or scrap loads in gondolas. I have taken a study of sorts to select the best scale suited for my livingroom in my apartment. I will probably end up in S scale! I have looked at all the scales. MicroTrains N and Z scale were disappointing in that their cars come with non-metal wheels. Anything this small demands metal wheel sets and having to invest additional cash to convert cars that should come with metal wheels (the entire truck should be "heavy metal") was a total turn off to me! Not to mention eyes that are now 65 years old! S scale from S-Helper and American Models appears to be equipped with metal wheel sets and a man equipped with ten thumbs and counting needs a size he can still operate and enjoy. My love for Proto 48 remains but S appeals to me much more now that Andre Ming as given me positive pep talks! If I were in HO I would purchase the "Nice Price" Accurail kits and make the conversion. Perhaps Accurail is aware of this problem and is working to improve the quality of their trucks? I am sure they will accept positive feed-back on this issue if they are contacted. Only then will they be made aware of your dissatisfaction. They want satisfied customers so make first contact with them and I am sure they will send you a reply regarding this issue ASAP. Joe Toth
Re: Athearn Woes Just what is the problem people are having with Accurail's trucks? I think their "Bettendorf" is a very nice generic AAR truck sideframe, and I'm using a bunch of them with complete success. Their Andrews sideframe is equally nice. I do not like the looks of the roller bearing truck, but it rolls just fine. I do always change out the plastic wheelsets, usually using Kadee, InterMountain, or sometimes Proto 2000 replacements, either ribbed-back or smooth-back, depending on the era of the car. I've never had trouble with Accurail's trucks. I do always give them a "ream-job" with the truck tool, as I do with all trucks. Ken
Re: Athearn Woes It is possible that a bad batch of trucks found their way into circulation and the "chosen few" just happened to receive the kits with the poor rollers? I would still replace the trucks with metal wheel sets too, regardless of the scale. I find it most interesting to follow all these threads in all scales. I like to keep up with the trend despite the fact I will never get to return to Texas and open up my "dream" which is a small train shop that just deals in good pre-owned merchandise. The truck issue seems to be a minor problem and Ken seems to have the solution with replacement metal wheel sets and the "ream-job". Boy, am I happy I am not a truck. Ouch! Joe Toth
Re: Athearn Woes Accurail uses a one piece casting for the wheelsets in their trucks. Years ago they sometimes were out-of-round or the axle was warped which caused the car to bob as it rolled down the tracks. Fortunately, though the wheelsets are still one piece, these days they seem to be made more accurately. Accurail has improved over the years. Anyone remember the friction pins that held the trucks in place? A few trips around the pike and they would fall out and derail the train. Now they actually furnish screws for the trucks and couplers. Rich
Agree with Rich's points about Accurail. Thank goodness those truck pins are gone! I view Accurail as today's equivalent to Athearn Blue Box cars of old. As long as you don't quibble over some details, you can't hardly beat them for price value and appearance today. Like Athearn BB, not many of their details are correct for the road the car is decorated in usually, but they look pretty good! Plus, they do a lot of Frisco! Ken
