Unknown locomotive in Seligman.

Discussion in 'General Steam' started by Ozarktraveler, Jul 13, 2019.

  1. Ozarktraveler

    Ozarktraveler Member

    Photo taken by either my Grandfather Opal Williams or his brother Genoa, in Seligman MO. Possibly a Missouri and Arkansas RR locomotive judging by the extremely faded circular logo remnants on the cab. Though it may not be an M&A unit.

    Looking for my steam experts to weigh in on what it is... road, type etc...

    Attached Files:

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  2. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    One of the six M&A 50-class Baldwin 2-8-2's, which were purchased from the AB&C.
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  3. Sirfoldalot

    Sirfoldalot Frisco.org Supporter Frisco.org Supporter

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  4. Coonskin

    Coonskin Member


    AB&C = Atlanta, Birmingham & Coast

    They became the M&A's 50 Class and turned out to be really good engines for the M&A. Better axle loading than the 40 Class 2-8-0's (former NYC/Big 4 engines), even.


    As far as the M&A was concerned, they were considered real brutes.

  5. WindsorSpring

    WindsorSpring Member

    Were these originally AB&A locomotives? Richard Prince's book Atlantic Coast Line mentions 15 2-8-2 types built by Baldwin in 1912-1915 for AB&A. All but four had been sold prior to ACL acquiring AB&C.
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  6. Sirfoldalot

    Sirfoldalot Frisco.org Supporter Frisco.org Supporter

    OK .. Thanks for the info -- that's a couple new ones for me.
    You guys are always shining!
  7. Coonskin

    Coonskin Member

    Hi WindsorSpring:

    Here's a quote of the information from Dr. Fair in his book, "The North Arkansas Line" concerning the M&A 50 Class locomotives:

    50 through 55 - Purchase used from the Atlanta, Birmingham & Coast through Southern Iron and Equipment Co. All were scrapped at Harrison in 1949.
    Former numbers were:

    50 - AB&A 101 - AB&C 210
    51 " 92 " 201
    52 " 93 " 202
    53 " 97 " 206
    54 " 94 " 203
    55 " 98 " 207

    So, yup, looks like the 50 Class were originally AB&A locomotives.

    They were handsome machines!


    However, I still like the 40 Class a LOT. To me, they look more burly and brutish than the 50's, even though the 50's were slightly better in the stats. Here's a recently acquired, and fresh out of the North Arkansas shops, M&NA #47....


    Is that not a brute of an engine???

  8. WindsorSpring

    WindsorSpring Member

    That photo shows 47 to indeed be "a brute." Impressions are relative and depend on context. The "50's" may have been big brutes on the M&A, but Prince in Atlantic Coast Line wrote: "The K-1 Mikados Nos. 20-1-215 were built by Baldwin in 1912-1915 as AB&A RR Nos. 92-106 and were lighter engines with 24" x 30" cylinders."

    The "heavier engines" were two Baldwin mikados built in 1910 with 25 x 32 cylinders, AB&A #70 and #71, AB&C 91 and 92, then ACL 301, 302.
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  9. Coonskin

    Coonskin Member


    Absolutely, it's all about context. Both the 40 Class and the 50 Class of the M&A had been pushed off the rosters of bigger and better RR's by larger and more powerful locomotives that were being added to those RR's stables. However, as mentioned, to the M&A, the 50 Class, at 47,700 lbs of TE, were "biggest" and most "powerful" locomotives they ever had on their roster.

    I guess the "colorful" and turbulent history of the North Arkansas, along with having to make do with rag tag equipment for almost all their existence, is one of the compelling reasons I've been a life long fan of them once I discovered them in the mid 1970s.

    I just wish they had been more photographically documented. Alas, the Ozarks were generally poor folk (compared to the National standards) and cameras and film were way down on their priority lists. Very few had cameras. So, I savor the scant few pics of them and day dream about what it must have been like to see and hear such scenes as the following E.G. Baker photos portray...

    Mike's 54 and 55 crosses over Crooked Creek leaving southbound out of Harrison, AR, gathering what speed they can before tackling the grade to Ozier summit:

    Engine 49, with 52 helping, hitting the tough climb to Ozier summit on one of the curves south of Harrison, AR:

    E.G. Baker then turned and took this pic of the struggling pair as they continued to slam up the grade:


    Can you imagine the stack talk??

    I can imagine it, but that's all it is: My imagination. Wouldn't it have been something to have experienced such scenes as these trackside?

  10. WindsorSpring

    WindsorSpring Member

    Very nice, evocative photos. I can almost hear the stack talk. BTW, Is there a virtual model of this RR among the "Coonskin's" route collection?
  11. Coonskin

    Coonskin Member



    Guilty as charged.

    A loooong time ago I made a fanciful* version of the St. Louis & North Arkansas from Seligman to just past Berryville, circa early 1900s. I modeled it during the time the line was being built. (I released that little version as commercial product.)

    * I used modeler's license and added industries and tracks that didn't exist.

    Several years later, I got the urge to expand the route, so I downloaded the Digital Elevation Model chunks of terrain I would need, and created the terrain from Joplin to Heber Springs. Upon that, I began to undo the fanciful portions of my little North Arkansas route, then starting at Eureka Springs, I begin reworking, pulling or relaying older track work to be more accurate, and laying all new track to be more accurate. I made it all the way to Harrison. At first I envisioned modeling the line as it was during the line's heaviest traffic years: WW2. The name of the project was "The M&A: 1944". You see, 1944 was a record year for the line. The M&A hauled 1.2 million revenue tons. The most ever by a significant margin. There were extra freights, the whole smear.

    Unfortunately, I bogged down for the lack of suitable V scale locomotives and equipment. (I never learned how to make V scale steam locomotives or rolling stock.) Even deciding to back date to M&NA late 1900s era (which would allow me to reuse a commercial North Arkansas equipment pack I had commissioned) wouldn't help, for I would need a model of the 10 Class of Consolidated engines, as well as a new 4-4-0 model. (For #'s 15, 16.)

    I was stuck.

    Here's a builder's pic of the one of their 10 Class Consols:


    And here No 12 blowin' her stack off on the 2.69% Seligman Hill...


    SO... the virtual M&A fell on hard times. It's archived on my hard drive(s), and every now and then I pull it out and run a train on it... but I seriously doubt it will ever receive any significant work again thereon.

    Sad, sad.

    However... IF one of my V scale friends ever offers to build the two needed engine models... then that might cause me to revive the effort!

  12. Ozarktraveler

    Ozarktraveler Member

    I so enjoy the discussions a nondescript photo from the past can pull out of the participants of this group.

    I have added a few pictures to my Seligman MO folder here. Some are of family as children, but the ever present railroad activity goes on in the background. Please check them out.

    I have found that several pictures used in the Seligman Centennial book are from my maternal grandfather or his brother (Opal and Genoa Williams). They aren't credited because apparently the more information they gave, the more they were charged to have it included in the book. Some were also featured in Fair's book if I remember right.
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
  13. Coonskin

    Coonskin Member


    So your roots pass through Seligman, MO, eh? Interesting!

    You have a Seligman folder here? Mind linking to it? I'm always up for viewing any pictures that are even remotely connected to the M&NA's territory.

    Seeing as your interested in things Seligman, perhaps you've not seen this picture of one #14 having just conquered Seligman Hill and nearing the junction with the Frisco...

    When I first explored Seligman in the early 1980s (on a North Arkansas recon mission), the concrete overpass was still in place, and the old North Arkansas grade could plainly be seen underneath. The county road that headed southeast through Butler Hollow was (for the most part) the M&A grade. I think its been relocated in some places since.

    In regards to my Ozark railroad interests, the Frisco and the North Arkansas are neck and neck. I will forever have an affection for both.

    All fer now!

  14. WindsorSpring

    WindsorSpring Member

    Oh to be able to model V-scale steam! It is tough and time-consuming, so hats off to the guys who do it. There are so many possibilities they never seem to do just that particular one (or two), but thanks to them, anyway.
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  15. Coonskin

    Coonskin Member


    Are you into V scale? If so, what persuasion? (My involvement has been via Microsoft's Train Simulator.)

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  16. Ozarktraveler

    Ozarktraveler Member

  17. Coonskin

    Coonskin Member

    Oh my, Craig! There are some excellent historical photos in your collection!

    I will need to study one of them further, for I might have incorrectly interpreted previous supposed data in regards to the alignment of the North Arkansas headed southeast into Butler Hollow.

    Thank you very much for linking to your photos.

  18. WindsorSpring

    WindsorSpring Member

    Re: my V-scaling. It is with TRAINZ. More details are on a PM (lest this thread get seriously hijacked and hopelessly off the Frisco topic :) ).

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