Thanks for the very reassuring words and the suggestions, Dale! I have seen some ads for both products you mentioned and will have to research them further. Frankly, at this point if the price is right, it might be better to take the DCC leap before any track is laid and wiring run. Will keep the group updated as planning progresses.
Chris, Sounds like you need to come to KC and check out some DCC systems. While they are all good, any DCC system is heavily dependent upon a good wiring infrastructure. (If you know all this, just skip down to my name at the bottom). The first part of any good wiring infrastructure is the installation of a signal bus line that feeds track all around the layout. Additing feeder wires to one piece of track and running the signal through rail joiners alone will end in disappointment when the rail joiners oxidize. Every piece of track needs a feeder to the signal bus that is underneath the entire layout. This takes time but will ensure that the locomotives work as well 100 ft from the booster as they do one foot from the booster. The bus line operated best when it is made of stranded, heavy gauge wire (mine is #10 stranded). The feeders (track to bus) are 22 gauge. Good soldering is essential to ensure solid contact. Soldering requires a little practice but it can be learned easily. The key is to tin each piece that will be connected and heat up both piece. The second part of good wiring infrastructure is a good throttle bus. In Digitrax this is call the Loco Net. If memory serves me, Easy DCC does not have a throttle bus as all the functions are done with radio signals. Follow the manufacture's recommendation for wire size and all should be well. The selection of a DCC system should not stop you from laying track and putting the signal bus in place. You will need those items anyway so get started ! Ship IT the Frisco! Rick
Chris and All: Rick mentioned in a recent post that he believed that EasyDCC doesn't use a throttle bus. Actually, he is partially correct in the fact that if you decide to go wireless as I did, a throttle bus isn't necessary, but you can choose to install one so that visiting operators can use their wired throttles if they choose. In my case, I have chosen not to install one as I am going totally wireless from the get-go. It means a lot less wiring. You must insure that you have excellent wireless signal reception throughout the whole layout area though. Hopes this helps. Bob Hoover FriscoFriend
Great point to ponder, Bob. I'm all for less wiring, and in a layout space of roughly 9'x20' and no partitions, I'd presume that reception would not be an issue for us.
Chris: If you want to save money in the long run buy a system that you can upgrade (add on to) in the future. Do not and I repeat do not buy a cheap no frills starter system to begin with. You will want to be able to expand later. There are a lot of reasons for saying this. I am not recommending one system over another just research it before you buy. Bob Wintle Parsons, Ks.
Chris and All: I just received my November Model Railroader and there is an excellent article titled " A Buyer's Guide to DCC Systems". I highly recommend that you read it. Having said that, you will notie that there are 16 systems compared from 9 different companies. Some of them are new and some are from established DCC manufacturers like Lenz, Digitrax, NCE, and EasyDCC. This may have been mentioned before, but to me two very important considerations are: (1) Availability and pricing of product you are considering. I have learned that most companies seem to have periods where some of their products are unavailable for various reasons. When looking at the prices listed, it needs to be pointed out that most companies products can be purchased through large internet DCC speciality dealers like Tony's Train Exchange and Litchfield Station for upwards of 20% off the listed prices. CVP EasyDCC on the other hand can only be purchased directly from them and their list price is in line for a comparable system with some of the other companies cost at a discount. I am only pointing this out as an example of some of the comparison points in making your final decision. (2) A support structure that you can tap into when you have questions because you will! I am assuming that you live in Columbia, MO so find out who in your area is using DCC and what systems they have. That will give you some important "hands-on" experience. Beyond that, each system has a Yahoo Group that you can join, although sometimes they can get a bit confusing for a beginner. Also, as you have already realized, there are some very knowledgeable people on this forum that are more than willing to help you. Bob Wintle for one is a long time Digitrax user and has already offered his help on that system. I have CVP EasyDCC and am willing to help you with that product. Hopefully a NCE PH or a Lenz user is monitoring this thread and will jump in and offer their help. In conclusion, do your research, establish a support structure, find a supplier you like, get your system, and then have fun! Bob Hoover FriscoFriend
I have been following this thread with interest. I have a Digitrax Chief, which I have had for over ten years, and it has preformed flawlessly. However, one disadvantage of the system is when using radio you have to plug in when starting the system, changing address, etc., where as on some of the other systems (I believe) this is not required. I only have three plugs on my layout and it seems I am always out of position. Other than that it has been a good system. I quit counting operator induced electrical shorts a long time ago, and as I said it just keeps on ticking. As a matter of fact when I turn the system on it beep’s so many times I don’t even know what it means. The page in the manual that explains beep, beep’s doesn’t show that many beeps. The original DT100 throttles had encoder problems but I have had no problems with my UT4R and DT400. As a matter of fact I still have one of the DT100 throttles, which I had upgraded to radio. (Used it today). However, if I were to do it all over I would probably go with a system like MRC because of cost and decide latter if I wanted to upgrade to a better system. Why? MRC has come a long way in upgrading their system to be in the same league as some of the higher priced systems. For a person that operates (plays with trains) by his/her self or with a child on a medium size layout all you need is something like MRC. Anyway, good luck on your selection! Jerome Keller, Texas
Chris, What is the latest on the DCC analysis? You can always come to KC and try a few out . . . I just added two more throttles to my Digitrax system which reminds me that I had one in my original order go bad. No matter what we did, the locomotive would only run in reverse. Since I had a year warranty, I contacted Digitrax and sent it in. I received a replacement throttle (which works perfectly) in one week! That's service. When scouting DCC systems, ask the owners what they think of the manufacturer's service. That is a real important part of any DCC system for me since I am electronically challenged (but I can plug things in to the 110V in the wall). Ship IT on the Frisco! Rick
Rick - Thanks for asking, and it's good to know there are others out there...I can handle rudimentary electronics (installing a decoder) but the prospect of wiring a slough of cab-control blocks is mentally exhausting! Based on what I've reviewed thus far, I've been intrigued by MRC's Prodigy Advance-Squared. The afforability seems to be there, and unless MRC's quality has suffered in past years, I'm quite pleased with my 25-year old plus MRC DC power pack that's taken a beating. My only concern is that it's too "no frills" as Bob noted before, and that I'd be very hamstrung for expanding it, if needed. Service is a critical component. It's one of those little things that often don't show up in a product review! I have publicly committed to DCC before the whole family, and if they pool their resources for my birthday as they usually do, I can get a good starter system, or have a good chunk down on a better one.
Chris, Looks like you are starting your homework and that is great. I am not familiar with the MRC system so maybe some of the other operators/owners can tell you what they think of the system. Their input should be an important factor when you make your decision since these things are not inexpensive. The only feedback I can offer about MRC in general is that I like their powerpacks from my block control days. However, I may not be a fan of their decoders. Although I have not verified the decoder maker in my new Athearn Genesis MKT MP15, I have heard from others that that MRC sound decoders are used in them. Unfortunately, my unit ceased all functions after one hour of operating on Kevin Leyerle's layout a month ago. All attempts to revive it, including mouth to mouth resuscitation, failed and the (expensive) unit was pronouced dead. I contacted my supplier who replaced the unit within 10 days which is great and the new unit seems to be ok. Kevin's Genesis MP15's sound was so bad he had to send his back as well. If anyone else has experience with Genesis DCC/sound equipped engines and knows what decoder is used, please let us know what you think. The important message here is that Athearn and my supplier were quick to get me a good unit but the decoders may be suspect. The good news is that with DCC you don't have to use any particular decoders. Everyone has their preference and they should all work fine with any DCC system. You should be able to use Lenz, Digitrax, North Coast, TCS, Zimo, Easy DCC, heck anyone's decoders with the MRC system as long as it is DCC. Well my Carpal Tunnel is flaring so I will sign off for now. Ship IT on the Frisco! Rick
I should have responded earlier to this, however, better late than never. I have an Athearn Genesis F-3 A & B unit both with sound. Prior to wiring my layout for DCC, I connected a DC transformer to the layout with alligator clips to run these locos as well as the other locos I have acquired over the years that were never placed on tracks to see them perform. The sound units were indeed fun to operate especially hearing all the different options as far as bell types, etc. After I acquired my DCC system and insalled it, I was anxious to program the Genesis units and get them running on the layout. They ran fine for a while, then, like someone came in and put a jinx in these units. They stall while the sound is still on, then run for a few feet then stall and run for a few feet, etc... All the other locos that I installed decoders in all run great, even though they don't have sound. I am really disappointed cause my lovely wife gave these to me for an 35 year anniversary gift, and they don't perform not even close to what they should. After reading other forums on this problem, there are a lot of other modelers who have this problem with MRC sound decoders in these Athearn Genesis locos whether they are diesels or steam. Some have returned these for replacement from Athearn or their distributor only to have the same problem. Frustration led these modelors to replace these decoders with other name brands and the results are resolved to their likings. I find it hard to believe that Athearn's name on these products will be smeared for the sake of these poor performance from MRC sound decoders. I have other Genesis locos without sound, these units perform beautifully on DCC.
Geep07, Did you get a replacement unit(s) for your defective Athearn Genesis sound units? While my dealer was happy to replace, my email directly to Athearn indicated they were eager to replace as well. Hope you are back up and running. My KC buds who know sound all agree that the Tsunami sound decoders are the best. They discourage factory ready sound installed in locomotives and prefer to retrofit with the Tsunami. Think that is what I am going to do to, once my budget allows. I operated on a layout in Leavenworth (town, not the prison) Monday night and the owner loves sound. It is great to blow the whistle for grade crossings and ring the bell in the yard. I am now spoiled (rotten). Ship IT on the Frisco! Rick
I was very interested in Rick's post about Tsunami Sound over QSI. When we speak specifically about Frisco diesels, we need to make sure the decoder offers several things: (1) Enough specific lighting features to be able to realistically have both a nose gyra-light and a rotating roof beacon. (2) The Leslie 5 chime horn (3) The 645 non-turbocharged diesel for the GP38. Tsunami has the top two but unfortunately not the third. They have been contacted and this can be worked around by using either the 567 one or the 645 one and adjusting it. It won't be perfect, but close. If I understand this correctly, the horns (8 choices) and the lighting functions are built into the decoders and just need to be selected in the programming phase. With QSI Revolution decoders, only one horn is built into a decoder and to change it or any other sound function one would need to purchase a Quantum Programmer which is another $100. Therfore Rick's point about simplicity from the get-go has much merit. Bob Hoover FriscoFriend
I am not knowledgeable on the sounds available on the Tsunami yet although my buds here in frozen tundra say they can do anything I am going to need. My only experience with QSI was a negative one. During a local KC "Bring Your Own Engine (BYOE)" session, in which each crew member could bring a run their own DCC equipped power, a Broadway Limited F unit (just one!) brought a Digitrax booster down. Not good. It has been explained to me that the QSI requires a lot of amps to get it going. I can't remember the amp requirements but it was something in the 7-9 amp range. I am no electrician but I am pretty sure that is going to wreak havoc on my 8 amp boosters. I am not sure if Broadway/QSI has addressed this issue yet so if any of the members can update us that would be great. Otherwise, when I need a BL engine, I will get it without sound and retrofit it. Ship IT on the Frisco! Rick
The sounds on the Tsunami are in my Opinion are the most realistic tha I have heard. I purchased one and have installed it in a Katy RS3 halfbreed that I am working on. I went to the Soundtraxx site and listened to several different decoders and they all sound great. Unfortunely for us Diesel era Frisco modelers they do not offer a non turbocharged 645 EMD sound. Maybe we ought to send them a list of which locos we need that had these. Maybe if we flood their mailbox they will come up with one. I will be ordering one for the U Boat that I have. Bob Wintle Parsons, Ks.
Great news, Soundtraxx has just announced the new non turbo charged EMD 645 sound decoder. This is a big void being filled. This is the decoder needed to replicate the sound in the MP 15, GP15-1,GP 38's. It has not actually hit store shelves but should soon. I know I am looking forward to getting several for myself. Great news indeed. Bob Wintle
