Info Request: Command Control Systems

I converted my layout command control system from CTC80 (purchased in 1989) this year to Digitrax one of the DCC systems on the market today. CTC80 was a good system in its day but today's level of prototypical operation demands more features and functionality.

I went DCC for the following reasons

1. I wanted Back EMF, a feature that makes brass steam engines and Life Like engines run really nice and slow. CTC80 and brass, even with can motors, never ran well.

2. I wanted the ability to turn headlights on and off, directional lighting and other light functions without building a bunch of circuit board for which there was no room under the hood. With CTC80, owners had either lights on all the time or the lights were burned out.

3. I like the price of the decoders/receivers. I can get Back EMF decoders with 4-5 light functions built-in for $22-24 and they are small and thin, fitting easily under the hood. CTC80 receivers were $50 each, no light features and, while they got smaller, they were never the size of DCC decoders.

4. I don't have sound now, but I can add it with DCC. CTC80 did not support sound. Sound adds an incredible (and expensive, about $100 per unit) dimension to the layout and operations.

There are many good DCC systems out there today and personal preference enters into the decision on the brand selected. I can only answer for myself but I selected Digitrax because I knew it would support 12-15 wireless operators without signal delay problems. Unfortunately, other DCC systems I operated on could not reliably handle that many operators (before I made my decision). These systems worked best for 8 or fewer operators where they ran flawlessly as far as I could see.

I would be interested to see if others have made their DCC selection and if they would tell us which system and their decision making process. That would benefit those who have not selected their systems yet.

One final note, if this thread turns into a forum, let's also discuss additional items like auto reversing, signals, etc. These are parts of the DCC system and can make life a lot easier. One of my favorite devices is an autoreversing circuit board. I will talk about that later.

Look forward to hearing from the membership.

Ship IT on the Frisco!

Rick

 

I chose NCE based on some discussions with an engineer I knew from professional activities. This engineer was impressed with the flexibility of NCE. He was a member of the NMRA committee. But this was years ago. They are all now good. I operate on a very nice layout that uses Digitrax, and it is also impressive.

The DCC manufacturers feel they have the market pretty well saturated by now. Those switching from analog to DCC have switched already. New sales will be to first-time layout builders. I'm not sure they are right, but they know their sales volume figures.

Interesting.

The good news is that the NMRA DCC standards are expandable. No more throwing out the old to get the new.

Doug

 

Doug,

I agree with the expandable nature of these DCC systems along with their interoperability. When I first started operating in the late 1980s with CTC80, I did not have enough throttles (tethered at the time) or enough engines. Only another user of CTC80 could help me out with throttles and engines and these items had to have different addresses to be helpful. Eventually I got enought equipment on my own but that first year or so I had to borrow equipment to facilitate my operating vision.

With DCC, users of other systems can bring their locomotives to my layout and run them expanding my roster. In an upcoming session, an Easy DCC user is bringing his MKT switcher to work the Glen Park yard. How cool is that?

I am going to another Digitrax user's session this weekend and taking two of my throttles along to help out. Since these throttles don't have specific addresses/numbers, I can help out very easily.

I have operated on several layouts that use NCE and they run great.

It just keeps getting better.

Ship IT on the Frisco!

Rick

 

I enjoy all of the threads on this site, but I find this especially interesting. I have not stepped out of the dark ages to DCC yet. I appreciate this information. I have purchased the "DCC Made Easy" book. I think I have some of the basics down, but it sounds like it can do so much more.

Thanks also to all of the experienced hands who post such great information on this site. You know who you are. If I were to miss thanking one by listing some but not all, I would do them a disservice.

Thanks,
Craig

 

Craig,

When you are ready to start shopping for a DCC system, let us know. There is a lot of knowledge in the group that you can use to help you make your selection.

It is important to note that all systems work well and some are a better in certain situations. Heck, even the older CTC80, Rail Command and other systems work still work well after being in service, in some cases, for a couple of decades. What other electronic equipment can you say that about? That is a testament to their design and rugged construction. The key elements they lack is lighting functions, sound and, my favorite, Back EMF.

Another important thing to note is that I installed my system (Digitrax Super Chief Wireless) myself with help from other Digitrax users and I am no electrical person (not even close). The new systems are much simpler that the ones we put in 20 years ago and the documentation is better (better but not great). Karl Schoettlin (Karl Brand, Karl S. sez he knows you) and I took one Friday evening and went through the Quick Start section and had one block and one engine running in about an hour. Like I said, I am no electrician but I can make it work and so can you.

Budget is another important factor, maybe the most important factor. I can tell you that I spent considerably less on my DCC system in today's dollars than I did on my old system in 1988 dollars. The big cost difference is the receiver/decoders. Today's decoders are half the cost of those of the older systems ($22-24 mail order vs $50). AND they have lighting functions and Back EMF and some have sound (sound decoders cost about $100/unit).

One additional and cool benefit is that most decoder manufacturers will guarantee their decoders with free, no questions asked replacement. Can't say that about the manufacturers of yesterday. Every decoder/receiver repair meant a dip into the old wallet. Ouch! I don't recall any of the defects being my fault, they were always a failure of some component on the circuit board.

While this discussion is not specific to the Frisco, it is important nonetheless as we power up and operate our Frisco layouts. Hope this is beneficial to the members.

Ship IT on the Frisco!

Rick
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Thanks Rick,

An update on my modeling/layout... In my last update, I mentioned I was waiting until I had secured a new job after completing my contract with my last employer in Cincinnati. I have since secured a job in St Louis. I am currently relegated to an apartment until I sell the home in Cincinnati (great time to sell... LOL). This means a little more delay, but progress of a sort.

I hope to set up a meet with some of the Frisco folks in the St Louis area sometime soon, if they're game. Say maybe at the Museum of Transportation.

Thanks,
Craig

 

Our sons played on the same college baseball team, and he attends the same church as my brother. Gotta like someone who knows how to spell Karl the correct way

 

As a computer scientist, my number one recommendation to new users of any system is that you need to actually try to use the system before you decide to buy it. This certainly applies to DCC systems, so that is the primary piece of advice I give to new DCC users for selecting a system.

This was one reason that I went with Lenz almost 10 years ago now... The Lenz knob throttles are very intuitive for new users to start running trains.

As a secondary reason for choosing Lenz, I liked the open standards of the XPressNet throttle bus. This open standard allows other manufacturers to build throttles or command stations to communicate with Lenz equipment, which means that you 1) do not have to buy ALL of your throttles from one manufacturer and 2) can choose throttles from different manufacturers for different tasks. The first point above can translate directly into cost savings (e.g. I have a couple of Roco LocoMaus II throttles that I spent a whopping $20 each for (new)).

As a side benefit, the open standard allows construction of your own throttles and/or command stations for those of us who are DIY types (I'm actually working on building a command station right now).

Paul

 

I like Craig's idea of meeting in St Louis, so let me know when that happens or if help is needed. I am just a few hours away in KC.

If we had it in KC, we could operate my humble layout in addition to other activities. It might be a good forum to discuss command control systems too.

Ship IT on the Frisco!

Rick

 

Roger that on the "meet".

Craig

 

Craig, go for it. Our last one there was many years ago, but quite successful. It was coordinated by Ken Wulfert, who is still active with the web site and living in St. Louis. There are some very nice layouts there to view also. I'll drive down for it from Ann Arbor as I still have a sister living in the area. Doug

 

2 hours from anywhere? Hmm sounds just like Parsons! Seriously I think a FMIG get together sounds like a great idea. I would prefer KC but I will go to St. Louis also. I would love to meet some of the guys I have read over these past 25+ years.
Bob Wintle
Parsons, Ks.

 

To help this Thread get back on track I think I will throw my two cents in on DCC. It has been so long since I made the leap I really don't remember why I chose my brand.(Digitrax) I am however glad that I did. At the time I had only experienced NCE and Digitrax. ( The NCE throttles were just too clunky for me) I have since gotten to use a couple of other brands. I guess the best advice I would be able to give is to tell anyone contemplating the switch to DCC is to do their homework. Get exposed to as many brands as possible. Get a feel for how the throttle feels in your hand. This is a deal breaker for me. I have a condition in my hands due to diabetes and certain brands of throttles make my hands swell. I believe it has to do with the thicknes of the throttles. I have a friend who chose a different brand from me who also has a problem with his hands. His brand is perfect for him and is one of the ones that makes mine swell. Another thing to consider is, are there any people around you that are experienced with your brand. This is invaluable. Do not let anyone persuade you to buy something just because it is their brand. There really is no one "Right" or "Best brand".
The thing I like most about my system is backward compatibility. I can use parts from older systems with my Super Chief. I do not have to totally buy new stuff when upgrading. I also like loconet. I am an Electronics tech. by profession and I really do not like to mess with electronics when I am at home. I like the fact that I can just Plug and Play. I also have the option to delve deeply into DCC if I choose. Playing with the trains is the best. Watching my GP38's with their rotary becons and Grya lites flashing is just too cool. Then there are the locos that I have installed sound decoders in. Wow what a thrill. (And to think Ol Rick thinks he will persuade me into going to the B&Y era Ha!)
I hope to be getting into signaling in the near future. With DCC the door is wide open as to what can be done.
If anyone has any questions or needs any help I am more than willing to help. Remember this, Model Railroading Is was and always be fun DCC just makes it more so.
BobWintle
Parsons, Ks.

 

I'll chime in on this thread. I have been DCC for quite some time. I went with an NCE Power Pro 5A system for a number of reasons. The main reason is the model train shop I frequented pushed these and at the time I bought mine he had 45 running in the Wichita area and had no bad reviews from anyone. I had operated on a few Digitrax systems but didn't like the way you needed a slide rule to change CV's. I don't know if that is still the way Digitrax programs decoders but after using an NCE I couldn't understand why anyone would want to mess with Hexdecimals when they could enter a number on an LCD screen and hit enter and it was done. I use Decoder Pro now to program decoders so that would probably make it easier to program on a Digitrax as well as any command system.

DCC for me made the layout come alive. I use signalling and the plug and play nature of DCC makes it easy. Being an N-scaler made conversions difficult at the time I was starting out but in the past 3 or 4 years the manufacturers have really got on the ball and have pumped out a lot of new decoders. I like sound and animation and no train leaves my station without the bell ringing and the proper horn signalling and the crossing flashers flashing. In N-scale this is accomplished with a sound car following the engine, but recently MRC has made some onboard sound and control decoders to drop in to the engines, but I am waiting a bit for the sounds to get more accurate before I try them.

The only quirk I can find with DCC is a lot of modellers don't use their imaginations, especially in HO and larger scales. I recently painted and detailed a couple of passenger cars for a fellow and he wanted some lighting installed. With this HO car I was able to install a pair of 4 function decoders inside and have one light for each compartment so he could turn on and off the lights in each "roomette". He thought that was fabulous and never heard of anyone doing that before. Another example is using function decoders to run animation on the layout. I have a couple of scenes where an oil field pumper restarts his pumpjack and it goes up and down and the 2 stroke engine "putt-putts" away, all started and controlled by the handheld. The hardest part so far has been developing a system to remember the addresses for each decoder.

This is one subject I am passionate about so if anyone has any questions or comments please feel free to let me know. I could chat about this kind of modelling all day long.

Dale Slechta

 

Dale:
With the advent of their DT 400 throttle Digitrax has indeed improved the way one can program a decoder using their stuff. You are correct, programming CV with hex is a pain. I had enough of that in a short amount of time. I had to learn how to use hex in my job many many years ago with the advent of programmable logic controllers PLC's. Using Decoder Pro is the way to go.
I would love to meet you sometime and see your layout, it sounds like you have some really neat stuff going on with it.
Bob Wintle
Parsons

 

Not sure if making CV adjustments with the Digitrax DT400 throttle is hex or not but that is what I am doing with my system. It just takes a few mins to number the engine and set CV29 which has the very basic loco settings. I can get an engine numbered and coded with the basics in about two mins. Really and some of that time is setting the engine on the programming track.

However, I am going to get Decoder Pro and a computer soon so I can fine tune my fleet and do some of the slick items mentioned below.

Ship IT on the Frisco!

Rick

 

Chris; I believe all DCC systems are good, some just do things differently than others. The NMRA set some extensive standards as it has been evolving and so far I haven't had one decoder or peripheral not "play" with my system.

I just got done helping the local boy scout troop with an entry level system and so far so good. They went with an NCE PowerCab for its "way easy" set-up and operation. The cost is right and it can be upgraded as interest and skill grows. I also hooked up a MRC Prodigy Express for them and they tried out the systems on different loops of track. When it was all said and done the group of young men decided they wanted to use the NCE so that is what they ended up with. I liked either one but the Prodigy didn't have any way to hook up to a computer so they could use Decoder Pro.

I don't think anyone could go wrong with either as they both cost around 150 dollars online. As for the other frills I mentioned earlier, they are great but for a beginner are not needed. Driving a train or trains is the important thing and the easier it is to do that the more enjoyment you and your son will have, and that's what it's all about.

Dale Slechta