My name is Bob Hoover and most of you know me as FriscoFriend. I am the New Products Moderator and am writing this to express some concern about the recent direction this forum seems to be taking. I am going to relate it to modeling and new products and the way history relates to what is occurring today. Please understand up front that these are entirely my feelings. Going back a few years in time, I really wished that I had a place to go to find out information, both modeling and historical, about my beloved Frisco. Almost all of the new products that were introduced were of the big name railroads so that left me researching what decals were available to use for a proper Frisco model. I could go down to the local hobby store of which we had a good one and find a local “expert” that said he had a slide or photograph somewhere and he would try and find it for me. The FMIG group was active, published great information, but everything still had to either be kit or scratch built. Then along came a traveling source of information known as the Frisco Museum where I could buy neat things that I had never seen such as painting diagrams, etc. I remember asking the curator or whatever he was if he had certain information and he said he did but it was in boxes that he needed to catalogue first. Another case of, man it’s there but you can’t see it! Then there was a Yahoo Group that if I remember correctly had so much negativity involved that a member got fed up and rebelled and formed another one. I believe that both are still around, but neither is active at all. About this time, Mike Corley decided to take a website that he had formed and turn it into what we now have in this forum today. As time went by more and more people came out of the woodwork and started providing information, in the form of both photos and remembrances. We were on a roll and still are! What has changed things? Simple, the Internet! We can now post questions and get answers almost instantaneously. Wow! We can also post opinions, such as this, and that sometimes is where problems develop and opinions overtake facts. Hopefully this will clarify some issues. As far as products and the role of hobby shops was concerned, let me explain. Today manufacturers decide to produce a product and ask for pre-orders to estimate how many units of a specific model to produce so that they and retailers don’t get stuck with extra stock. The Internet has allowed online retailers to emerge and sell products at a discount (usually at least 20%) and ship it right to our front doors. In order for the local hobby shop to compete, they must play the pre-order game and offer a discount of some sort. Is this unfair? Maybe, maybe not. What it has done for those of us that model a lesser known prototype is get more products than we ever would of under the old system when the manufacturers would only produce roadnames they knew would sell in a reasonable amount of time or worse yet, choose to not sell at all. In other words, we at at the mercy of the local shop. Addressing the lack of being able to stop by the local hobby shop and have a coke or cup of coffee, in a way I still can. Instead of at the local hobby shop per-se, it’s in the basement or spare room of one of the great model railroads we have around the country. At the same time I can take a throttle and go back in time and operate our beloved Frisco. I can also feel free to ask some of the same questions that I did years ago, only this time getting answers. And yes, there's always a fridge full of cold drinks and some munchies in a cozy crew lounge. In regards to where the beautiful and accurate models are made , if I asked the host to remove all of the models made in China off the railroad including the track, I shudder to think of what would be left. It’s just a fact of life! I might add that the owner of one of these empires is able to build something of such a magnitude is that he doesn’t have to take the time to build cars and decal them. Now that I am on this subject, at the same time there was some issue being taken on the forum as to where items were produced, we had just gotten announcement of three new items from Athearn. This is right off the heels of getting maybe the finest production plastic model ever produced in the form of the Genesis GP15-1. I paid less for three with Tsunami sound and accurate lighting effects that I would have for a custom painted Overland brass version without sound that was offered fifteen years ago and they run better to boot. Concerning the discussion of the BN and others that have absorbed railroads like the Frisco, that too is merely a fact of life in my opinion. As an Athearn new product contact, I am going to let everyone know right up front that I don’t intend on asking for a modern Frisco locomotive as has been suggested and why. I dealing with manufacturers, I feel that I have to be reasonable, prioritize, and pick my shots. My #1 objective with Athearn at this time is getting the Genesis GP7 produced, period! In conclusion, I see nothing wrong with discussions about the good ‘ole days as long as we realize and accept the Internet has changed everything and those days still exist and to me are better than ever, only they are in someone’s basement or spare room! Respectfully submitted.
Bob--On any forum there's going to be someone who doesn't like "this" or doesn't like "that" or who will never be satisfied with products offered or where they're manufactured, or what store they shop at, or what kind of pickup truck they drive, or what era they model or what political party they belong to etc. etc. etc. on and on and on...(Hopefully it's not always the same person!!) My advice is just don't take anything on this chat board too personally. If there's a subject being discussed and you're not interested, just go on to something else. I participate in the discussions and subjects I like and move on. The only thing that really irritates me is "being told" what I should do or like. Or how I ought to model this or that. There's a LOT of good "stuff" on here to enjoy. I say just enjoy it! Tom
Bob, has posited several good points, and in my mind (read that, my opinion), a couple of things that we should recognize come from his post: 1) The quality of models today far exceeds that of anything could be purchased in the past - in visual/physcial appearance and running quality. 2) The manufacturers are willing to listen to the Frisco nation because we represent, on this web site, a large group of potential sales (however, we must be united in our purpose). 3) Our focus needs to be on that which was legitimately Frisco stock and not on what might have been or what might be. 4) I think that nearly everyone understands that this is a Frisco forum, paid for by hard-core fans of the Frisco who recognize that this resource is nearly invaluable.
I fully concur with Bob and Keith. Rather than worry about where an item is made or who is selling it, we should enjoy the fruits of the labor of those who bring us these products. The past is the past and I can remember when the USA had 3 major commerical aircraft makers and ruled the world in sales. Now Boeing has absorbed Douglas and Lockheed is no longer. The sad part is that the leading builder is not US. Major parts of the Boeing products are made overseas and shipped to the US for assembly. Sound like model railroading?? Tony LaLumia
You moderators are fantastic folks and I want to thank you for all the stuff you do. Heck, Kieth even came by my house once. Just wanted to let you all know that this forum is very appreciated. Jim James Zalma Branch Modeler
I'll echo that. I love having this forum SOOOOOO much. I don't know what my railroad would be with out it. If it weren't for this site I would not be modeling the Frisco right now. And O man the people I have met through this site that are truly good friends. Epically those that have opened up there home to let me (and others) come operate. Another piece of good news, I pulled some strings and am now planning on attending the Frisco convention this year. I attended the one in Pittsburg, but couldn't make KC last year. That is another thing, is off this site I meet so many good people at the Frisco convention back 2009. If it weren't for it (and this site) I wouldn't have had the honor of operating at Rick McClellan's layout, or have met Bob Wintle and seen his layout. And also if there would have been no site, no frisco convention I wouldn't have an Athearn SD45 setting on my layout after Keith Robinson tracked one down for me after they were all sold out at the places I could get one. Or have gotten to do the best job shadowing a person could do thanks to John Chambers. If it weren't for them and the rest of the good folks on here I would be no were near were I am today. Thank you all Ethan
I remember going into the Hobby Station in Kirkwood back in 1996 and finding an Athearn BB Frisco SD40-2 and a wide vision caboose. I had been collecting model trains for about 12 years by that point and had never, ever, came across any Frisco engines or cabooses. I bought them on the spot. Now we have Geeps, U-boats, SD45's, and F units. I would like to thank whoever is responsible for that. Pat Moreland, Union Mo.
Hey, I still go to that hobby shop whenever I go to St Louis. Online shopping is cool enough but it's nice to actually hold and examine stuff in person. I wish I had a Frisco SD-40-2
Another great place to shop is swap meets. You may not be able to find all the brand new releases there, but you can find old releases at priceses even the internet cant beat. Ethan
Bob and everyone else, Regretfully, a lot of the old reliable hobby shops are gone and many will continue to close their doors due mainly to many being operated by Baby Boomers who either retire or are forced to close due to personal reasons. The Internet has changed just about everything and shopping is no exception. I have already had to Eat Crow a couple of times since I joined and I regret that my comments were either taken personally or misunderstood altogether. For this, I do apologise. I am not on any other site to chat nor have I ever been. Frisco was a first with me. I too have met so many of you if only in words and we all share a common love and interest in a very unique railroad. I plan to do more reading and less bickering, and I agree, if there IS a subject posted that a member doesn´t find interest in, please, just pass it up. This site is for all Frisco fans including the members who are young enough and didn´t get to witness the excitment and drama that the Frisco provided to us fans who remember her well. They are to be made welcome as they too purchase the models that are brought out in Frisco livery as well as support this site. Their support will insure that the Frisco will never be forgotten! My suggestion in Athearn producing a modern Frisco diesel in the C44-9W was a result of the models Athearn has produced for other Fallen Flags to date. Check their site and see for yourself that they are all sold out at Athearn! Thus, if Athearn is going to continue to produce models of Fallen Flags it seems only fair that the Frisco get a crack at it too. I sold my Lionel O27 in order to convert to HO back in 1962. I bought and assembled the kits in the yellow boxes! Even though Irv Athearn is no longer with us, his spirit is and I don´t think that simply asking Athearn to consider a run of the C44-9Ws for the Frisco would do any harm. Like the other ones that have been released and sold out, I honestly think every Frisco fan would purchase one including the modelers in other scales besides HO, if only as a static model. Makes a great "paperweight"! This is a great site, set up by great people, and shared by a bunch of the best railfans going. Frisco might be a Fallen Flag, but it´s spirit lives on thanks to all of you who have kept it alive. Without it, I wouldn´t have found a bunch of good old boys...and girls too mabie? Thanks to all of you! Joe Toth
Joe and All: I need some help and clarification on this issue. Aren't all of the Heritage locomotives that Joe is referring to are models of actual Heritage schemes that the real railroads rolled out. Unlike the UP, the BN to my knowledge hasn't gone back and painted locos in Heritage schemes for their Fallen Flag acquisitions. If they ever chose to do a Frisco version and tour it around the country as the UP does, it would immediately be produced in model form and sell out. Otherwise, I believe it would be considered a "Fantasy" scheme and someone would have to design it begin with. I will hold judgment on how well it would be received by the modeling community.
Finding this site is what re-sparked my interest in model railroading. I boxed up all of my HO stuff about 17 years ago when it just didn't seem like fun anymore. I joined this site almost 2 years ago and, as a result, just built a new table, sorted through all of my HO stuff this past weekend, and ran my very 1st train (31 years old) on a real layout table (not just a folding table). I'm so thankful for this website and the time and energy that go into it. I probably would not be modeling right now if I had not found this site. Although I have secondary interests in BN/BNSF due to my age, I certainly mean no offense when mentioning them. It's always been my intent to ask things about BN/BNSF as Frisco's successors. Frankly, I have no personal interest in anything about the BN prior to their absorption of the Frisco. My interest in BN is purely post-absorption and entirely due to the fact that they absorbed the B'ham sub where I grew up watching trains. If the absorption hadn't happened and the Frisco was still around, I would probably have no interested in BN/BNSF at all. (Just like those who aren't interested in BN/BNSF, I'm not really interested in anything that hasn't ever run on the B'ham sub.) Like the thread suggests, it's just a matter of "changing times." As for the products now...I'm so thankful to be able to by Frisco stock!!! I'd like to see them all made in the USA of course but it's not reality. I've learned not to worry about what I can't possibly control. Again, thank you so much to the people who keep this site up and running. - Brandon
Bob, Athearn rolled out what they called Fantasy schemes on their own. Check the models they have produced of the C44-9Ws. When you pull up any of the Fallen Flag schemes you will find an Overview which describes Athearn´s intentions of offering these "what if" schemes of these models. So far, they have released D&RGW, GN, RI and WM. All are sold out at Athearn! I was surprised to see the Western Maryland. The Rio Grande looks pretty sharp, the GN´s Big Sky Blue does too. The Rock Island red and black was a surprise. You would think it would have been released as the blue ROCK image. The WM "Circus Scheme" may have been suggested by the WM folks? The Fireball would have been my choice. At any rate, pull up these roads on Athearn´s site under the C44-9W and read Athearn´s Overview and then just consider what a Frisco o/w with Coonskin herald on the nose would look like. I think Frisco.org should take a request to Athearn just in case they run their own version and then Frisco fans be disappointed if it isn´t up to their standards. I hope this puts some light on the subject. Athearn announced that "it´s time to have a little fun and take some creative license", quote, unquote. Joe Toth
Joe: Thanks for the clarification. I have created a poll and put this matter up for a vote under the "New Products" catagory.
