F9A SLSF 5005 and F9A SLSF 5007 - Derailment Damaged Former EMD F3As Rebuilt By EMD As F9As

Discussion in 'F9' started by meteor910, Feb 4, 2008.

  1. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Did SLSF 5005 & 5007 have any appearance differences, other than Frisco specific features, from a new, fresh built stock EMD F9A?

    Ken
     
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  2. gna

    gna Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Ken,

    I found this photograph of F9A SLSF 5007 at the Railroad Picture Archives web site.

    There is one other photograph of F9A SLSF 5007 on that site.

    http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=117980

    It looks like a stock F9A to me, with the additional air filter opening ahead of the porthole and dynamic brakes.

    The dynamic brake fan may be a later one, with a higher rim, but I am not sure.

    I hope someone more knowledgeable will chime in, though.
     
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  3. gna

    gna Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Ken,

    I just checked Marre's Frisco in Color, and there is a picture of F9A SLSF 5005 on page 62.

    Marre refers to SLSF 5005 and SLSF 5007 as F9Ams.

    That being said, I cannot tell any difference between the pictures of F9As SLSF 5005 and SLSF 5007 and the F9As in 2nd Diesel Spotter's Guide and books of that ilk.

    Farr air grill, extra air filter opening with vertical slots ahead of porthole and large dynamic brake fan.

    Oddly enough, the nose grabs are painted yellow.
     
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  4. gbmott

    gbmott Member

    The "m" in F9Am is just standard EMD notation for a unit that has been modified or rebuilt from an older unit.

    The KCS E9As that were rebuilt from E3As were technically E9Ams.

    It reflects the fact that there were likely certain components from the older units used in building the new ones.
     
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  5. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    While staying here in Olathe, son Kurt gave me a used, but pristine, copy of the book by the late Chard Walker, Cajon.

    This book is one of the better works describing the Santa Fe's line climbing out of the Los Angeles basin up over Cajon Pass, one of the more famous railroad locations in the U.S.. Mr. Walker was a long-time relief operator at the Summit, CA and Victorville, CA stations on the Cajon Pass line. The UP also has trackage rights on the Cajon line.

    Anyway, on page 176 is a nice picture of F9A SLSF 5007, with two SLSF F9Bs and, no doubt, F9A SLSF 5005 bringing up the rear in a perfect ABBA consist. The picture shows them coming into Summit station on 2/21/1962 bringing in symbol freight CTX.

    This reflects one of the early run-throughs, in which the Frisco and the Santa Fe interchanged via run-through using the Quanah, Acme and Pacific (QA&P) on trains CTX eastward and QLA westward. The use of the QA&P in this fashion saved a several hour delay at the normal ASTF/SLSF interchange point at Floydada, TX.

    Preparing for this service was one of the main justifications for rebuilding F3As SLSF 5005 and SLSF 5007 into F9As, with their greater power, 1750 HP vs 1500 HP, and the addition of dynamic braking. Both the extra power and the dynamic brakes were required on the mountain grades out west. An F9 ABBA consist like this had 1000 HP more than did a F3 or F7 ABBA set, 7000 HP vs 6000 HP.

    Also pictured on page 177 is a set of three Frisco high-hood U25Bs with SLSF 803 in the lead on CTX at the Summit station on 2/20/1962. This service was one of the main early uses of the then brand new Frisco U25Bs. The three U-boats delivered 7500 HP and also had dynamic brakes.

    It was a pleasant surprise while looking through the book admiring the pictures to see Frisco black and yellow!

    FYI, this book is available in many public libraries. It was published in 1985.

    Ken
     
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  6. tmfrisco

    tmfrisco Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Ken,

    I had no idea that Frisco units went that far west.

    Also, I did not know that the train symbols were different for the ATSF and the Frisco because the train was CTB on the Frisco. I do not know how far east the ATSF units went pre Avard, OK gateway, but I did not seen any ATSF units in Tulsa until then.

    I hired out in 1971, so there may have been some earlier, but not after then. I had the privilege to run the Fs, and I can tell you it was a different feeling than the second generation units.

    With the comfort cabs of the last years, that feeling of being up in the sky returned.

    Terry
     
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  7. HWB

    HWB FRISCO.org Supporter

    Very interesting.

    I like the thought of my Frisco units wandering past Avard and mingling with the Santa Fe in the desert sun.

    Maybe one of those F units could find their way into the El Capitan or Texas Chief consist.

    Who knows, maybe an SD45 led the Super C once!
     
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  8. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    I have a rail "memory" from those ATSF/SLSF "run through" days.

    One night about 9 PM I was driving north toward the grade crossing near Broadway and Commercial Street by the Anheuser-Busch grain elevators in Springfield when the crossing bell and blinkers went off.

    I could see a headlight over in the North Yard to the east on a westbound train moving slowly westward toward the yard and shops. I stopped, I do not think there were any other cars behind me, but at any rate I was first in line at the tracks.

    Slowly, the train approached the crossing just at a creep. As it came closer, the most melodious and loudest diesel air horns I think I ever heard blew the longest, two longs, a short and about a thirty second L-O-N-G, grade crossing warning blast I had ever heard. The air horns alone were breath taking!

    Then came the engines. The cleanest, shiniest, most perfectly matched six-unit set of blue and yellow Santa Fe F7s in an A-B-B-B-B-A lash up crept by me.

    A "railfan moment" if there ever was one.

    Tom
     
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  9. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    The original locomotive pool consisted of 4, 6-unit ATSF covered wagons and 2, 4-unit sets of Frisco U25Bs, and 1, Frisco 6-unit F9 set.

    The units accumulated mileage at passenger locomotive rates.
     
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  10. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    Karl,

    What were the years when that was first going on with the Santa Fe F7s, Frisco Fs and U25Bs?

    Thanks,

    Tom
     
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  11. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    Early 1962 through 1964.

    By 1964 there were sufficient GP35s and U-Boats on the Frisco side to "retire" the covered wagons from pool service.
     
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  12. Ozarktraveler

    Ozarktraveler Member

    I love this kind of stuff.
     
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  13. pensive

    pensive Member Frisco.org Supporter

    On pages 62-63 of Marre/Sommers' Frisco In Color is a photograph of the 6 unit F9 set that the Frisco contributed to the Santa Fe pool service.

    The caption reads in part "At Oklahoma City, in February of 1965, F9Am 5005 leads no fewer than four F9Bs and another A unit, turning back West after handing off a Santa Fe train to a new set of power."

    This suggests that the F9s in pool service lasted past 1964.

    Rich
     
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  14. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    Those run-throughs went through the Springfield depot for a while after the passenger service was discontinued.

    Down the passenger line from Nichols to the depot, then out on through town at WS Junction.

    At that time, they did not stop and the crewmen hopped on and off the moving trains.

    Tom
     
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  15. In response to previous posts above, albeit about 10 years to late, I offer the following insight and information for whatever its worth for anyone needing, wanting or seeking clarification:

    The so called "F9Ams" were originally F3As SLSF 5005 and SLSF 5007 which had been converted to F9As and were equivalent and identical to any other plain jane F9A units that were built new by EMD at LaGrange, other than any specific to Frisco option/additions they may have internally or externally.

    The "m" suffix designation would usually and normally indicate that a locomotive so designated had been modified in some way, such as utilizing a wreck/trade in unit 1500 hp prime mover versus a new and normal 1750 hp prime mover, or something of that nature or request, differentiating them from the normal as built factory specifications.

    They were born as F3As, not F9As so shouldn't be considered or misconstrued to have been modified and therefore not differentiated in any way, shape or form from a true factory built F9A once converted from F3As.

    The 2 units were converted to standard off the shelf F9A units by EMD but utilized the original frame and most likely the structure of the original F3A car body of but having all the original F3A details and components replaced with F9A versions.

    In reality they were, and should be referred to as F3Ams being that they retained the original frames and reused the serial numbers of the F3A units that they were born as.

    They retained their original F3A numbers when they returned from EMD to Frisco service in March 1954. Some railroads assign a new number series in such instances but Frisco did not do so but that is neither here nor there.

    The fact that in the conversion process the units used or retained some original equipment does not justify them, in my opinion and in theory, being termed as a modified F9A rather than an F3A modified to an F9A and therefore should not be mislabeled, identified or designated F9Am as such.

    Mechanically, electrically and visually they were identical to a completely new from the ground up F9A even though everything F9 was sitting on the old F3 frame and no one would have been the wiser when viewing them without any knowledge of the their heritage and history as F3As converted to F9As.

    The "m" designation has been used mistakenly or incorrectly in some cases when in reality it does not apply and tends to haunt a unit historically such as in this case of referring to SLSF 5005 and SLSF 5007 as F9Ams rather than the F3Ams that they actually were.

    The SLSF 5005 and SLSF 5007 as F9As were equipped with the dynamic brake option so as to be able to activate and control the dynamic braking option of the F9B units that came on line with with the Frisco in January 1954.

    No other Frisco units at that time were dynamic brake equipped and would not have been able to have been utilized with the F9Bs to operate and control the dynamic brake equipped option of the F9Bs.

    The Santa Fe units used on the run thru trains with Frisco F9Bs in consist had dynamic brakes and could be used in multiple with the Frisco F9Bs for use and control of the dynamic brakes on the Frisco units.

    Hence the reason and need that those 2 F3As were chosen, an additional factor being that they had sustained some wreck damage in an accident and therefore were logical choices to be converted to F9As.

    They were shipped off to EMD and once converted they were the only two F9A types on the Frisco and the first and only EMD covered wagon A units on the Frisco to be equipped with dynamic brakes. They would not, however, be received and available for 2 months after the first F9Bs arrived on Frisco property.

    That being the case the Frisco temporarily had no units of their own that could operate any dynamic brake equipped locomotive of any type or any railroad including their own F9Bs.

    Once other locomotives came to the Frisco that were dynamic brake equipped then the 2 F9A and 13 F9B units were no longer the sole Frisco units with dynamic brakes and the 2 F9As were no longer the only units that could be used with the F9Bs or any other railroads units with dynamic brake to be able to operate and control the brake functions of such units.

    Without a suitably equipped control unit the dynamic brakes of the F9Bs would have been non functional and worthless to have had onboard though they could still be consisted, operated and used for motive power purposes with other compatible units.

    The next units with dynamic brakes to come on line with the Frisco were the GE U25Bs and EMD GP35s in 1961 and 1964 respectively. This was 7 and 10 years after receipt of the first dynamic brake equipped F9Bs in 1954, therefore the 2 F9As were the only two Frisco units proper for those first 7 years that could be used with the F9Bs if they wanted to be able to utilize the capability of the F9Bs dynamic brake option.

    Not sure how often any of the U25B or GP35 units may have been operated in consist with the F9Bs on a normal or otherwise basis but it did provide for that option if and when required.

    Any references to SLSF 5005 and SLSF 5007 F9As being referred to as F9m or F9Am in the excellent Frisco Diesel Power and the Frisco in Color books and any other pertinent Frisco publications or motive power information sources should just be considered to be F9A as that is what they are or were as well as for simplicity reasons.

    I sub designate them as F3Am for my personal notes as technically that is really what they are as I see it, but that would really cause confusion and consternation for many. Just my personal preference for my motive power notebooks which I started 34 years ago when I began tinkering with real diesel locomotives.

    I was a new member of a railway museum as well as and for the most part a new self schooled student wanting to learn about diesel electric locomotives, how they functioned, and what made them tick. Helping to restore and return a vintage 1952 GP7 to operation really piqued my interest in all things diesel.
     
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  16. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    In as much as the EA7 model designation, is an EMD moniker, it should be the correct and standard name used for these units.

    Well before diesel spotting became an art form, the Frisco created its own model names for its F3s, which received modifications and upgrades. Please note the locomotive roster.

    The Frisco was quite happy splice two F9Bs between a pair of U-Boats or a pair of GP35s. It was also common to insert a single covered wagon between a pair of SD45s.

    Screen Shot 2019-01-20 at 7.19.07 AM.png
     
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  17. geep07

    geep07 Member

    Were F9Am SLSF 5005 and SLSF 5007 ever repainted in the austerity black and yellow or mandarin orange and white paint scheme?
     
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  18. mark

    mark Staff Member Staff Member

    John,

    My records indicate the following.

    SLSF 5005, renumbered in 1968 SLSF 75 - Delivered in black with golden yellow bow wake and side stripes with no side numbers. side numbers later added, repainted black and yellow with larger lettering in Scotchlite, repainted Mandarin orange and white with low nose mounted orange on white coonskin herald straddling lower stripe separation.

    SLSF 5007, renumbered in 1968 SLSF 77 - Delivered in black with golden yellow bow wake and side stripes with no side numbers. side numbers later added, repainted black and yellow with larger lettering in Scotchlite, repainted in abbreviated bow wake only black and yellow, repainted Mandarin orange and white with high nose mounted orange outline coonskin herald on white stripe.

    Hope this helps.

    Thanks!

    Mark
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2024
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  19. geep07

    geep07 Member

    Was F9A SLSF 5005, SLSF 75, repainted with bow wake only black and yellow as F9A SLSF 5007, SLSF 77?
     
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  20. Iantha_Branch

    Iantha_Branch Member

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