Rosedale (KY) Tower

Discussion in 'Interlocking Towers & Facilities' started by Karl, Dec 4, 2009.

  1. wmrx

    wmrx MP Trainmaster

    Richard, I'll defer to the experts, such as Karl, but I think that you are trying to place KY Tower at the location of Twenty-ninth St. I'm familiar with the area because I was a Manager of Terminal Operations with Union Pacific for several years in Kansas City and the old Katy yard was part of my territory. I was also out and about on the old Frisco all the way to Bonita due to the trackage rights UP has on the BNSF.

    Glen Park and Rosedale Yards were parallel to each other but they were staggered. Going by timetable direction Glen Park is farther North. I'm 100% certain that 29th St. is at the North end of Glen Park. There is no longer a tower at this location, but the Kansas City Terminal still identifies it as 29th St. As the first post of this thread states, KY Tower was where Katy trains entered the Frisco main. Therefore, it would be located at the South end of Glen Park.

    Looking at all the pictures posted concerning this thread, my vote is that the towers at both 29th St. and KY were on the East side of the tracks and the views are looking Northward.
     
  2. renapper (Richard Napper RIP 3/8/2013)

    renapper (Richard Napper RIP 3/8/2013) Passed away March 8, 2013

    also the Katy elevator is just north of 7th street viaduct which cuts across glue park yard and rosedale yard, but this is well south of the KS-MO state line which went just to the south of the Katy yard office. The pictures shows the tower looking in a southward direction and a litte to the west.
     
  3. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    I believe that we need to clarify terms.

    Givens: 29th TO. MP-C2.0
    KY TO. MP-C3.2
    Through Plate Girder Br over Turkey Creek MP-C3.8


    Using the RULER fuction from Google Earth I measured north from Br 3.8 a distance of 0.6 miles, which will be the approximate location of KY TO,

    and from from Br 3.8, I measured 1.8 miles north which is the location of 29th TO, which would now be under I-35.

    The 29th St TO is on the north end of Glen Park and it controlled movements on and off the Katy, movements to and from 19th Street, and movement to and from KCUS.

    KY Tower is on the south side of Glen Park and it controlled movements off and on the Frisco at that location.

    Your picture of KY Tower is looking RR North.

    Picture one shows KY tower and picture 2 shows 29th St

    KYLocation.jpg 29th_st_TO.jpg
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 5, 2010
  4. yardmaster

    yardmaster Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Fabulous stuff, everyone.

    Once we move to the new house/layout space, the kid and I haven't fully determined what/where to model, but if we stick to the KC area, I may have to find a way to include this interlocking plant, considering all of the information that is available.

    Best Regards,
     
  5. wmrx

    wmrx MP Trainmaster

    Thanks, Karl. I think your last post puts everything in proper perspective. When I have an opportunity, I'm going to check the location where you believe the KY Tower foundation still exists.
     
  6. renapper (Richard Napper RIP 3/8/2013)

    renapper (Richard Napper RIP 3/8/2013) Passed away March 8, 2013

    I stand corrected. Here is what my problem has been, I read somewhere the KY tower was right on the MO-KS stateline which would of put it closer to the old KATY Yard Office, but its location makes much more sense now that I understand it controlled the South end of the KATY Yard. I agree, I always thought 29th Street controlled the North end of the KATY yard.
    Richard
     
  7. klrwhizkid

    klrwhizkid Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Here are some more aerials of the area described. I need to go down there and stomp around a bit.

    KY Tower location 1.JPG KY Tower location 2.JPG KY Tower location 3.JPG
     
  8. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    Kevin and Keith,

    I am looking forward to hearing about the results of your ground observations. I keen to know if my rectangle is really a foundation or just an illusion. Although, after seeing Richard's photo, I wonder if the tower might be another 0.05 mile to the RR south.
     
  9. renapper (Richard Napper RIP 3/8/2013)

    renapper (Richard Napper RIP 3/8/2013) Passed away March 8, 2013

    I have just about finished my model of KY Tower. I think the next model I will build will be 29th Street. Does anyone have the B&B plan for this tower? I have pictures of the tower.
    Richard
     
  10. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    I think there's a website of all the Kansas City area towers--I used to have it as favorite on my former PC, but I've since lost contact with it. I'll try to Google for it.

    Tom
     
  11. mark

    mark Member

    Tom and Richard,

    You might want to try the fallen Flags web site. Please see http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/kct/kct.html.

    Many of the photographs on the site are from the Kansas City Terminal (KCT) Railway. They were contributed by Nicholas S. Muff, MD. His work on his Kansas City Southern (KCS) and KCT model railroad has appeared several times in RMC and Prototype Modeler magazines.

    29th Street Tower
    Please see http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/kct/kct-29twr-arn.jpg.

    View looking railroad north toward the KCT engine facilities. The track in the upper right is the start of the Fairgrounds Branch. The tracks curving off to the northeast between the 3rd and 4th telegraph poles are the passenger main connecting tracks to Kansas City Union Station. Frisco, Katy and Missouri Pacific (MP) Railroad trains used this connection. The latter two railroads had trackage rights on the Frisco from Kansas City to connections with their lines at Paola, KS.

    The tracks curving away to the upper left lead to the Tower 4 crossing of the KCT, the Frisco's connections to the Kansas City Stockyards and ultimately Frisco's 19th Street Yard. The tracks at the bottom lead to the Missouri, Kansas and Texas (MKT) Railroad's Glen Park Yard and further south to Frisco's Rosedale Yard. Today this site is behind Ponack's Mexican Restaurant on Southwest Boulevard, below the I-35 overpass bridge. This location is across the street to the northeast from and very close to Schutte Lumber.

    Hope this helps.

    Thanks!

    Mark
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 10, 2010
  12. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    Good hunting Mark! Dr. Muff's webpage is the one I was thinking of--The tower photos are down the page from the top under "Buildings and Structures." The page has lots of Kansas City prototype info including some of Richard's pictures!

    Tom
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 9, 2010
  13. klrwhizkid

    klrwhizkid Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    This afternoon, I went for a walk in the weeds at Rosedale. I could not find any remnants of foundation either direction, railroad north or south. I did find a culvert that carries a creek underground across Rosedale yard. The concrete opening had the year 1909 cast into the concrete. This culvert is directly adjacent to the location of the Ash Grove Cement facility. Attached is a picture with the culvert location circled. With this located, perhaps some right of way chart might help us nail down the location of KY tower in relation to the culvert.

    KY Tower location - culvert yr 1909.JPG
     
  14. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    I have attached a 1980 Track Chart, which shows a 8' x 61.3' reinforced concrete arch and a 36" x 342' pipe in the vicinity of MP C-3.2

    rosedale.jpg
     
  15. klrwhizkid

    klrwhizkid Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    After stomping around in Rosedale this past Saturday and looking at this from the ground, and, looking at current satellite imagery as well as aerial photos from 1959 on www.historicaerials.com
    ( http://www.historicaerials.com?poi=13263 ) combined with the photos that Richard Napper posted, I think I have determined the location of KY Tower.

    As I posted previously, on the ground Saturday, I found a concrete arch at the opening of a 3' diameter culvert that passes under Rosedale Yard with the year 1909 cast into the arch. The arch and culvert are directly behind the unloading shed of the Ash Grove Cement transfer plant. There is a diversion channel running parallel to the Frisco mainline that feeds this culvert. The north end of the diversion channel ends behind the south property line for Rosedale BBQ. The diversion channel is visible in both the current satellite imagery as well as the 1959 aerial.
    As Karl pointed out, the 1980 track chart shows the culvert pipe at about MP 3.2.

    In Richard's photo, the tower sits at a point that appears to be at the end of a curve in the mainline. There is a rise in the terrain to the northeast behind KY tower. Also you can see the south end of a white building to the right of the tracks for Cooper's Lead in the background. Directly to the north of KY Tower there appears to be a slight ridge running parallel to the mainline. Additionally, the points of the turnout for Cooper's Lead are facing a second set of points that would direct traffic off-mainline to the left (going south). So we are looking for such a location (at least formerly).

    1) If you look at current satellite imagery, approximately mid-block between Lincoln St and Hill St is where "Cooper's Lead" currently comes out of the bushes, however, if you look at the 1959 aerial on historicaerials.com there is another possibility just northwest of Rosedale BBQ.
    2) In both images, you can see that just southwest of Ash Grove Cement, there is some visual evidence (both on the ground and in satellite imagery) of prior road bed for a siding angling off to the southeast.
    3) If you are on the ground today where the mainline is still straight, the line of the straight track lines up with the south corner of the Bunge Elevator's central lift tower like in Richard's photos.
    4) The first real rise of ground begins at the southwest corner of the parking lot for Rosedale BBQ.
    5) When standing on the mainline behind Ash Grove Cement, the south end of the current Batliner Paper recycling center would be visible if the trees were not grown up north of the diversion channel.
    6) Currently, parallel to the mainline, on the west side of the diversion channel there is a slight ridge separating the diversion channel from the mainline.

    With all of the evidence in, I believe Karl's original guess was very close. My suggested location would be right behind the unloading shed of Ash Grove Cement, just south of the arch and culvert I discovered (next to the big tree in current imagery). The tower operator would have driven down Hill St to get to the parking next to the tower.

    The image below has been rotated to better illustrate the alignments of everything. North is to the left.

    Cooper's Lead - KY Tower marked up.JPG
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 11, 2010
  16. yardmaster

    yardmaster Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Karl, thanks for the 1977 track chart. That's going to be useful for our modeling efforts (Ben is deciding that he wants to stick with modeling KC/Olathe for the SL-SF and ATSF in the new house).

    Great railroad archaeology work, Keith. Sometimes it's tough to find a substitute for field investigation. All of the above mas made for some fun reading!

    Best Regards,
     
  17. Rick McClellan

    Rick McClellan 2009 Engineer of the Year

    Just as I had thought, all roads lead to Rosedale BBQ.
     
  18. renapper (Richard Napper RIP 3/8/2013)

    renapper (Richard Napper RIP 3/8/2013) Passed away March 8, 2013

    Keith
    Thanks for the on the ground detective work, I think you have nailed the location.
    Richard
     
  19. RedFusee

    RedFusee Member

    This is a recently posted photo by the Kansas City Public Library (Missouri Valley Special Collections) of the north end of Glen Park Yard during the 1951 Flood that shows the 29th Street tower.

    https://flic.kr/p/FnoC7J
     

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