Old Orchard, MO

Discussion in 'Depots G-P' started by don, Jun 1, 2003.

  1. don

    don Guest

    Old Orchard, MO. Early 1900s. Old Orchard is at the eastern edge of Webster Groves and is roughly a mile west of Southeastern Jct.(Lindenwood)
     

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  2. Old Orchard Mo Station

    FM
     

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  3. railroadguy65

    railroadguy65 Member

    :) Old Orchard, MO Station - 1926 Sanborn map
     

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  4. Kenneth

    Kenneth Member

    Re: Orchard, MO

    I am not sure why a map showing the location of the Shrewsbury depot is posted here. The Shrewsbury depot was located at MP 7.9 and the Old Orchard depot was at MP 8.7 near the foot of S. Old Orchard Ave. I am helping a friend who works for the City of Webster Groves in finding more information on the Old Orchard depot. He is building a model of it and needs more pictures or plans. We can find three pictures on the Internet, but all of them are form the track side, none showing what the street (north) side looks like. If anyone can help, I can be contacted off site at kc0esl@att.net. Ken Rimmel


    Note:
    (Since this post, the map has been corrected)
    klrwhizkid
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 18, 2011
  5. WindsorSpring

    WindsorSpring Member

    Kenneth interestingly wrote: "The Shrewsbury depot was located at MP 7.9 and the Old Orchard depot was at MP 8.7 near the foot of S. Old Orchard Ave."

    Here are a couple observations:

    The 1910 Official Guide reprint shows "Old Orchard" at MP 9 and no Shrewsbury station. (9 is a "rounded-up" 8.7.)

    The distance on the 1954 Webster Groves 7 1/2 minute quadrangle between the location shown on the Sanborn map below and the approximate location of "...the foot of S. Old Orchard ..." (Log Cabin Lane) is 1.75 inches. At a 1:24000 scale, this is 3500 feet, or about 0.66 miles. 8.7 - 7.9 = 0.8 miles, but much of the 0.13 difference can be taken up by the curvature of the main line between the two points that, in my unforgivable haste, I did not include.

    To what "Passenger Depot" does the Sanborn map exactly refer?
     
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  6. frisco1522

    frisco1522 Staff Member Staff Member

    I wonder if the Sanborn map is showing the Shrewsbury depot?
     
  7. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Don't know if you can read this much detail from a Sanborn map, but the Shrewsbury depot did have a rounded bay window, while the Old Orchard depot had a rectangular bay.

    Ken
     
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  8. klrwhizkid

    klrwhizkid Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    My original text of this post has been removed following Ken and George's posts. The attachments show the locations of the Shrewsbury Depot and the Lindenwood Depot. See my follow-up post on this thread for an explanation of the location for the Old Orchard depot.
     

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  9. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    The Shrewsbury depot (MP 7.9) was a commuter stop - six stops westbound and four stops eastbound in 1931 per my SLSF St Louis Suburban timetable. It was the stop after Lindenwood (MP 7.1) and before Old Orchard (MP 8.7). Those were the days!

    I have a pic of the Shrewsbury depot here plus I know of at least two pics of both the Old Orchard (front views) and the Lindenwood depots. I also have diagrams of each depot given to me by a good frisco.org friend. I'll let it up to him to post them if he wants to. The pic, the diagram - and the Sanborn map, all show the round bay window at Shrewsbury.

    A few years ago, my wife and I were hiking around Webster Groves (she grew up there) and we found what looked like, maybe, remnants of the Old Orchard depot foundation.

    Ken

    ps - Keith, I think in your map pics posted above you have what you indicate was the Old Orchard depot location mis-named. That is probably close to the location of the Lindenwood depot. Old Orchard is well to the west of Shrewsbury, in the heart of Webster Groves. After Old Orchard, going west, there was another commuter stop at South Webster (MP 9.4), then a stop at the main Webster Groves depot (MP 10.1, still standing). Going east from the Lindenwood depot, the next stop was Gratiot (MP 6.7).
     
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  10. WindsorSpring

    WindsorSpring Member

    More measurements on the 1954 Webster Groves Quadrangle support the idea the Sanborn map in the thread below depicts the Shrewsbury depot location.

    Mile markers on the Eastern Division Timetable 25C (http://www.frisco.org/vb/showthread.php?1458-Eastern-Div-ETT-25C-Aug-13-1933&p=11423#post11423) can be found on the attached topographic map. Their distances from SE Junction in inches correspond (within rounding) to calculated Frisco mile posts.

    For instance, South Webster at MP 9.4 is 5.5 inches from SE Junction on the map. This is 11000 feet or 2.1 miles. 2.1 plus 7.3 is 9.4.

    Similar calculations work for Shrewsbury (1.3 inches or 2600 feet or 0.5 miles (0.5 plus 7.3 is not quite 7.9, but close enough). They also work for Old Orchard (3.6 inches or 7200 feet or 1.4 miles. 1.4 plus 7.3 is 8.7).

    Now all we need is the "on the ground" pictures of the Old Orchard depot location.
     

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  11. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: Orchard, MO

    The depot had electric lights, but outdoor privies.

    old_orchard_bprint.jpg
     
  12. klrwhizkid

    klrwhizkid Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Ken and George, I bow to your experience and wisdom. I arrived home this evening and started investigating, assuming nothing. I found the Sanborn maps for Webster Groves and two for Old Orchard. The Old Orchard maps for 1903 and 1917 show a depot at the intersection of Garden and Old Orchard Avenues. The 1903 map is attached. An aerial of the same location is attached. Based on using satellite imagery, moving east along the line from the Webster Groves station using the rail distances on the 1933 ETT 25c, I feel absolutely certain that the location reflected on the Sanborn map on this post and the aerial pretty much the location of the Old Orchard depot (+/- 200ft).

    I will make appropriate corrections to other posts mis-labeling the locations of this depot and Shrewsbury depot.
     

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  13. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    You are dead on Keith. The area you have circled in red on the aerial map is right where Caroline and I thought we found some remnants of the former Old Orchard depot foundation.

    That area along Big Bend, between Laclede Station Road on the northeast and the Big Bend/Lockwood intersection on the southwest, is known as Old Orchard, but is part of the city of Webster Groves. The depot was there on the Frisco tracks just to the northeast of Old Orchard Blvd, which used to cross the tracks, but now ends there since I-44 was built around 1968-1970. The Old Orchard area along Big Bend was, and still is, a nice commercial area with many shops, restaurants, etc. Just to the northwest of the Big Bend/Lockwood intersection, on the side opposite from the Frisco tracks, there was a big St Louis Public Service streetcar terminal and turnaround. The car lines ran out Lockwood Blvd for several miles out to Kirkwood.

    Ken
     
  14. WindsorSpring

    WindsorSpring Member

    I think we are in agreement Sanborn maps and satellite photos posted by klrwhizkid in post #12 show the Old Orchard location. The Sanborn map earlier in the thread (Post #3) showed the Shrewsbury depot location and not the Old Orchard location.

    This begs the question which depot is represented in the thread that has the Sanborn map for the Shrewsbury station.
    (See http://www.frisco.org/shipit/index.php?threads/shrewsbury-mo.990/#post-5773). The "passenger station" shown is clearly inside the St. Louis city limits since it is in line with Wabash Avenue just north of Marquette. Could this be Gratiot?

    Note:
    (The map for Shrewsbury has been corrected also, and the map that was on the Shrewsbury thread was the Lindenwood depot)
    klrwhizkid
     
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  15. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    George - The Sanborn map in the thread you refer to shows the Lindenwood depot, which was located at the west end of Lindenwood Yard on the south side (I-44 side) of the tracks, close to Wabash Ave. It was just a commuter stop. Kind of a neat little building though, with its little tower! Note the Sanborn map shows the tower.

    Pics attached - showing the Lindenwood depot being torn down in 1939, with an interesting newspaper article.

    Ken

    ps - The next depot east, Gratiot, was just a small 12'x19' rectangular little building, waiting room only.
     

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  16. frisco1522

    frisco1522 Staff Member Staff Member

    There was a small stone "depot" at Old Orchard after the wood depot was gone. There also was one at Cheltenham. I don't know why they built them as commuter service was long gone by then.
     
  17. Kenneth

    Kenneth Member

    Well, it seems that my helping a friend find more information about the old frame structure that was located in the Old Orchard neighborhood uncovered a little 'oops.' I can see how things can get confused when very little evidence remains. Added to the facts that some of the street names changed over the years or was abandonded. Adding the fact that there were so many whistle stops every few blocks, I am surprised that on a busy day, the train ever kept to schedule. Thanks to everyone involved and with what was uncovered should help my friend complete his model of the Old Orchard depot. When (if) he completes the model, I will get pictures and post them. Ken Rimmel
     
  18. klrwhizkid

    klrwhizkid Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Ken, I'm glad we were able to help, and I'm also glad that you registered and asked the question. I know I enjoyed investigating and Ken Wulfert, George Nelson and Don Wirth were helpful in keeping me between the "guardrails"

    By all means, any pictures of your friend's work are readily welcomed!
     
  19. Kenneth

    Kenneth Member

    Keith,
    Despite what it shows for my starting date, I first joined a number of years earlier. Since I was not on the group on a regular basis, several times I got dropped and had to rejoin. The last time I resigned (2008) I had to change my name a little, because someone else got it. Don suggested that I hit the forum for help when I contacted him about the depot. I was surprised with how fast everyone responded. Somewhere in my many CD's I have another picture of the Old Orchard depot that was taken what looks like a few years from what we have here. I have been digging through the pile and when I find it, I will upload it too. Ron Williams was also interested to see it. Sometimes I think it is true that there is so much information on the Internet, you can not find anything! Ken R
     
  20. pensive

    pensive Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Since this thread was added upon recently, I decided to go to the location and see if there was any evidence of the station still there. In fact there was. There was a concrete foundation about 15 feet square; not the original station but maybe the small structure that Don described.

    The first two pictures are of the foundation from the triangular parking lot bounded by S. Old Orchard Ave, E. Frisco Ave. and the railroad tracks. The third picture looks north straight down Old Orchard Ave. on the left with the Murdoch Ave. (Laclede on the old maps) bridge on the extreme right. The forth picture points towards the west; the clump of trees hides the foundation from a trackside view.

    I remember visiting the station in 1962. My dad, who was an executive with the Frisco, obtained use of the building to store things while we were moving, and we stopped by one Saturday morning to see if the key worked. I don't remember much about it except that it was a small, dillapidated structure that was marked with a sign that read "Old Orchard".
     

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