Heavyweight Blue and Gray cars used with the 4500 series 4-8-4's

Discussion in 'Heavyweight Cars' started by banjoflyer, Jun 25, 2016.

  1. banjoflyer

    banjoflyer Member

    Hello Everyone.
    I'm new to the forum and am glad to be here.
    I joined the forum with one initial goal in mind.
    I model S scale and this year LIONEL will release a new S gauge model of the Meteor 4-8-4 #4501.
    However they have declined to produce a matching heavyweight passenger car set.
    I am trying to gather any and all information on a list of heavyweight car names and/or numbers that would have appeared on a Blue and Grey painted passenger car train consist.
    Another S scale model train manufacturer has expressed an interest in making such a train that would have been pulled by the 4501.
    The cars to be modeled would be similar to PRR cars.
    If anyone could help out by furnishing car names or numbers or pictures of the above type of cars that would have been used in a train pulled by the 4500 series 4-8-4 engines it would be appreciated.

    Thanks in advance.
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
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  2. pensive

    pensive Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Last edited: Jun 25, 2016
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  3. TAG1014

    TAG1014 Frisco.org Supporter Frisco.org Supporter

    Of those examples pictured, only the RPO is anything like the Frisco had. The baggage car doors are too far apart and the baggage doors should be solid, not divided like the PRR example. The other PRR cars in the pictures are "shorty" cars with four wheel trucks. Frisco coach and chair cars were 80' long with six wheel trucks (except 767-768-769 which were 72 footers with six wheel trucks).
    There weren't enough blue and gray (actually off-white) cars to really make solid blue-gray train and the assigned sleepers were painted in Pullman Green.
    A prototypical Frisco steam era Meteor train would have had a mix of green, Pullman green and blue-gray equipment. There is one picture in Arthur Dubin's "More Classic Trains" book of the Meteor at St. Louis with what appears to be a solid blue-gray train spoiled by an express box or refrigerator car on the head end, but the picture doesn't show the Pullmans on the rear of the train. As far as some of us here on the chat board have determined, no Pullmans were ever painted in the blue-gray scheme. If you're interested in all things "Meteor," I'd urge you to get a copy of the TRRAHS "book-a-zine" on the Meteor! (St. Louis Terminal Railroad Association Historical Society).

    Tom G.
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  4. banjoflyer

    banjoflyer Member

    Thanks Rich and Tom G. I'll send that info along to the model maker and try to get a copy of the TRRA Meteor book.
  5. banjoflyer

    banjoflyer Member

    I have found some info as to car a coach car #1062 originally used on the Firefly in 1942. The colors were blue and silver and it was a six wheeled truck heavyweight.
    It might be possible to stretch the imagination and assume that the Frisco might have used many and any Blue/white, Blue/Gray or Blue/Silver cars in a consist at different times as the need arose.
    We in S scale have a long history of having to "squint" at less than perfect prototypical matches. That's because there are few S gauge manufacturers and when new product is released we usually go with the flow and accept modelers "license" to stretch reality.
    I can probably get the manufacturer to apply all six wheel trucks to the cars. As to exactly matching Frisco prototypes for the 5 car set that isn't gonna happen as he can only make the cars he has molds for.
    So....if the cars were to be made what numbers and or names would you select for each car even though such cars probably never existed?
    Thanks in advance,
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  6. TAG1014

    TAG1014 Frisco.org Supporter Frisco.org Supporter

    The 1062 coach would have been in the general pool and could have run in the Meteor at times. If you weren't too particular the PRR coach, baggage and RPO could "pass" for Frisco if they had good paint jobs and six wheel trucks. They would be as least as good as the tank type coal tender since the 4501 was an oil burning engine. It looks like what you really need is a Frisco passenger car roster. There's a good 1956 roster scanned in the FMIG newsletter #30, June 1981.

    Tom G.

    PS: The blue in the blue-gray scheme
    was referred to as "Zephyr Blue," the Frisco didn't have a train named Zephyr.
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2016
  7. banjoflyer

    banjoflyer Member

    Thanks Tom. The confusion about a Frisco "Zephyr" train is solely my fault and a rookie mistake. I now get it that's reference to a color name.
    The Lionel model is clearly a coal burner but that's what I'll have to settle for as no one else will produce this color scheme in S scale.
    The passenger car model maker does sell an oil fired 4-8-4 Steam loco but I doubt he would produce the Meteor paint scheme as Lionel will have beaten him to the punch. And his model's tender is quite different from the Meteor's tender.
    I found the reference to the list of car names. Looks like many listed are streamlined cars but towards the end of the list are some "Extra" cars that might fill the bill. I'm going to furnish the model maker with all the info I have found to date and let him decide if he wants to proceed. I sure hope he does. It's still way early as the engine model won't appear till around Christmas this year and it would be best to match colors of the Blue and White on the engine to use on the passenger set.
    Thanks again,
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
    Raymond Anders likes this.
  8. TAG1014

    TAG1014 Frisco.org Supporter Frisco.org Supporter

    Good luck on your Meteor quest. It's really a shame that the model manufacturers (all scales) haven't made an affordably priced, true-to-scale Meteor locomotive (and train). The HO Glacier Park models were priced wa-a-y beyond the average modeler's pocket book.

    Tom G.
  9. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    Officially, this is the Frisco livery for its "streamlined" cars. The Frisco used this terminology for cars to which it added skirts and it painted Zephyr Blue and "white". I think that this is very handsome livery, and it's a shame that it wasn't continued.

    Streamlined Psgr Car Paint Scheme
    Zephyr Blue: Body, steps, grab irons
    Silver Gray(Very Light Gray or Off White -keb): Center band and sash
    Dove Gray: Trucks, roof, underbody equipment
    Black: Underframe and diaphragms
    Gold: Letters and Numbers and Stripe

    While it is possible that the 1062 was used in the Firefly/Texas Flash Consist, the consist that these trains used remained constant unless traffic demands required additional cars. Under the rubric , never say never, it's very doubtful that any of the Firefly/Texas Flash cars were ever used on other trains.

    It's too bad that you have to make do with a UP FEF-1 4-8-4 and PRR psgr cars.
  10. banjoflyer

    banjoflyer Member

    Hello again everyone,
    Well it's been almost a year since I decided to try and have my S scale friend Ron Bashista at American Models paint up a set of heavyweight passenger cars to go along with the recently released Lionel S gauge Frisco 4-8-4 Meteor steam engine.
    The set has now been produced and we S gaugers are happy with it. I know you fellows may have lots to say about the new set but in S gauge we have learned to "Take what we can get" since there are few manufacturers in S.
    Thanks to all the information all of you helped me with learning about the Blue/White Meteor cars painted by the Frisco in the war years I was able to have American Models release about 40 sets of cars.
    They include a baggage, RPO, combination, coach and observation. There was one "extra" coach also produced to make a 6 car set.
    I chose the numbers and names for the cars from the detailed list of cars found in the Frisco literature you guys referenced for me.
    I know there never was an open platform observation painted in the blue/white scheme but since the set has one...Ta Da!
    So anyway attached are pictures of the cars.
    Thanks for all the help!

    Frisco Meteor Heavyweights 021.JPG Frisco Meteor Heavyweights 022.JPG Frisco Meteor Heavyweights 023.JPG Frisco Meteor Heavyweights 024.JPG Frisco Meteor Heavyweights 025.JPG

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
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  11. banjoflyer

    banjoflyer Member

    Well for some reason the observation car didn't post so here it is:
    Frisco Meteor Heavyweights 026.JPG

  12. klrwhizkid

    klrwhizkid Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

  13. jefferyam

    jefferyam Member

    Hi, I am one of the ones at the HODRRM that was involved in selecting the paint scheme when we repainted coach 1062. We chose to use Pullman Green with the yellowish gold lettering because that is how the Frisco donated the car to the museum and more than likely how it appeared when it was newer. Since the car was missing its skirting that emphasized the streamlined appearance, it made more sense to go with an earlier paint scheme. Needless to say the single color was a cheaper alternative as well. There are many different variations of "Pullman Green" and we used samples we found on the car that had been behind fittings and such that were not exposed to the sun and other elements. We had to use a best guess with input from other museums to get a lettering color that was as close as we could. We are very pleased with the way the car turned out. I am sure it would look equally as nice. in the blue and grey as well. We have gone to great lengths to try and get all of our recent repaints as close to accurate for their various railroads as well. We also just had our Missouri Pacific Budd dome car painted last year and that was a multi color, multi step, time consuming process but the end result was worth it.
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