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ANOTHER GREAT FRISCO RAFFLE!

Covered Hoppers In Cement Service Questions

Discussion in 'Freight Operations' started by FriscoFriend (Bob Hoover RIP 4/12/2018), Jul 19, 2011.

  1. FriscoFriend (Bob Hoover RIP 4/12/2018)

    FriscoFriend (Bob Hoover RIP 4/12/2018) Passed Away April 12, 2018 Frisco.org Supporter

    It has become apparent that I am going to need more cement hoppers for the cement plant operation at Fredonia on my railroad. I have discussed this with Rick McClellan but thought I would pose my question to the forum for more thoughts and possible perspective.

    I model 1980 and the major source of revenue on my railroad is a cement plant at Fredonia, KS. It has become obvious that it generated between 20 and 40 carloads of cement a day for the Frisco itself and maybe more through interchange with the MP and Santa Fe. Now the question.

    Besides the 84000 series 77 ton 2-Bays (Kadee & Atlas cars) what other cars that have been produced in HO may have been assigned, or relegated, to that service in 1980?

    Two that come to mind are:

    (1) 82300 class 3-Bay's (Athearn)
    (2) 78500 class 2-Bay's (Intermountain)

    I m purposefully leaving out the Accurail 2-Bay's as they don't have see thru roofwalks which I consider essential.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2023
    FriscoFriend (Bob Hoover RIP 4/12/2018), Jul 19, 2011
    #1
  2. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Bob,

    I don't know for sure what service the Frisco assigned to their 78500 series of 100-ton 2-bay ACF Center-Flow LO's, but this car is clearly applicable to cement service.

    Many roads used them for cement.

    Ken
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2023
    meteor910, Jul 19, 2011
    #2
  3. FriscoFriend (Bob Hoover RIP 4/12/2018)

    FriscoFriend (Bob Hoover RIP 4/12/2018) Passed Away April 12, 2018 Frisco.org Supporter

    Ken:

    Do you think the MP may have as I need some from them also?
     
    FriscoFriend (Bob Hoover RIP 4/12/2018), Jul 19, 2011
    #3
  4. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Bob,

    A quick check in Jim Kinkaid's MoP freight equipment book shows at least three series of ACF 2-bay 100T CenterFlows:

    MP 705500-705999
    CEI 706300-706499
    MP 706800-706999

    The captions do not note if these cars were in cement service but, again, this is the kind of car commonly used for cement as well as other dense materials.

    You mentioned above about the possibility of using a 3-bay hopper car for cement. Not sure if that was common, as cement is of such a high bulk density that a full 3-bay car would be too heavy. Most all cement cars were 2-bay. The cement particle itself is fairly dense, and is a very small particle size, such that there are a whole lot of them in a cubic foot, making the bulk density very high.

    I have an old Ramax 2-bay CenterFlow that I upgraded and painted last week. I'm going to do it as one of the CEI cars with Herald King decals even though the Ramax is not quite identical to the MP/CEI cars on a few details. I put my rivet-counting glasses away.

    One of my chemical industry jobs involved managing a product we used to ship in MP/CEI ACF CenterFlows, among others.

    Ken
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2023
    meteor910, Jul 19, 2011
    #4
  5. Joseph Toth

    Joseph Toth Member

    Plano Model Products, www.planomodelproducts.com has beautiful see thru etched metal roofwalks.

    They have walkways for just about every freight car on the market in HO, and other scales, including covered hoppers.

    They are Proudly Made in the USA!!!

    Joe Toth
    The Trinity River Bottoms Boomer
    railroadjoe@hotmail.de
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2023
    Joseph Toth, Jul 20, 2011
    #5
  6. nickmolo

    nickmolo Member

    Bob,

    Most of the ACF 2-bays that were purchased by the Frisco and MoPac family were for silica sand and/or roofing granules. These were new cars purchased for high value commodities and were less prone to leaks for the sand. Cement loads were typically for older cars and used for shorter distances due to the cost sensitive nature of cement.

    No 3-bays during the Frisco period for cement loading.

    Nick Molo
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2023
    nickmolo, Mar 11, 2013
    #6
  7. friscobob

    friscobob Staff Member Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    This is good to know.

    Should I ever expand my layout down the road, I want to include the line from Hugo to Ashdown, which includes the cement plant near Foreman, AR.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2023
    friscobob, Aug 26, 2013
    #7
  8. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Nick,

    Is that perhaps why the Frisco (finally!) obtained some two bay ACF Center-Flows rather than more P-S two bays for glass sand service, i.e., better sealing top hatches?

    We noticed that in the chemical industry back in the day. I used to ship a very caking-prone detergent builder product to the major soap manufacturers in bulk hopper cars. The material always seemed to cake less, and unload easier, when it was in a Center Flow vs a P-S, Greenville, Mt Vernon or Trinity, etc car.

    I always wondered if it was the air-tight integrity of the ACF, from better hatches and unloading doors, or if it was due to the unique shape of the Center Flow allowing easier unloading. We did put premium hatch covers and bottom doors on these cars as we knew we had a bad "caker" to deal with.

    Sometimes we would load, say 45-tons, of granular product, and it would arrive at the customer as one 45-ton granule. Bad news.

    I still have a couple of small sample jars of the stuff in my basement , Yep, totally caked up!

    Ken

    ps - Regarding bulk cars, be it covered hoppers or tank cars, I always thought ACF had the best designs and workmanship. At least that was our experience.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2023
    meteor910, Aug 26, 2013
    #8
  9. Oldguy

    Oldguy Member Frisco.org Supporter

    I don't know if this would help, but, Monarch Cement has a plant south of Humboldt, KS.

    Google maps shows a ton of varying cars waiting for loading/unloading. Since S. 125th Street runs just to the east of the loading facilities, one could do a drive by to see what they use.

    I can't speak to LaFarge plants, but Monarch used to receive "clinker" in covered hoppers to meet production demands.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2023
    Oldguy, Aug 26, 2013
    #9
  10. klrwhizkid

    klrwhizkid Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    That didn't happen to be soda ash did it?
     
    klrwhizkid, Aug 26, 2013
    #10
  11. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Keith,

    No, it wasn't soda ash (sodium carbonate). Ash will set up a bit, but usually can be broken loose with vibrators, or the famous "manual helpers", sledge hammers, without too much trouble. Does wonders for the paint and metal on the car hoppers!

    We were buyers of large quantities of soda ash from several of the Green River people. We were not producers. We used "soda ash" as an alkali source . I got to visit a couple of the plants we bought from out there, and went down into one of the mines.

    There's a whole city down there! I forget the number, but we were either 500 ft or 1500 ft below grade down there. It was good to come back up and see the daylight.

    Ken
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2023
    meteor910, Aug 26, 2013
    #11
  12. April

    April Member

    The coal fired power plant I worked at would load fly ash, roughly what is left after burning coal.

    It has the consistency of talc and I believe it was sent to cement plants to be used as a filler. This would have been mid to late 1980's and we would receive early 50's era two bay covered hoppers. They still had friction type bearings. I recalled some of these ancient cars still had stencils from 25 years beforehand to return them to a specific fertilizer plant for urea fertilizer loading.

    It was a relativity small time operation, usually no more than five cars a week, for us but maybe this would be a good source for a few inbound loads for your cement plant. :)

    April

    P.S. While when I was around was after the Frisco era, post 1981, there were several coal-fired power plants operating in the region during the 1950's-70's time frame. The power plant at Riverton, Kansas comes to mind.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2023
    April, Aug 26, 2013
    #12
  13. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Your plant's fly ash was a rich source of calcined calcium silicate, a key raw material for cement manufacture.

    Combine this with lots of limestone, plus several other additives, grind it up, and heat the bejeebers out of it in a large kiln, and you have cement. The various types of Portland cement are a function of the additives included to provide specific properties to the range of cements.

    Ken
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2023
    meteor910, Aug 26, 2013
    #13
  14. April

    April Member

    I never really got into the composition of the fluffy stuff.

    One of my jobs was to keep the electrostatic participators used to capture the fly ash rocking and rolling. White smoke out the stack was a no-no. ;)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2023
    April, Aug 26, 2013
    #14
  15. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    April,

    Amen to that!

    We had a series of electrostatic precipitators at a plant in Idaho for which I was responsible. Any smoke, let alone a white smoke, was a big no-no.

    White smoke would indicate we were burning up our product. Not a good thing to do!

    Ken
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2023
    meteor910, Aug 26, 2013
    #15

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