Neal TRAINZ Steam for Frisco

Dricketts mentioned a couple days ago "I've been wanting to reskin any of Ben Neal's steam locos for Trainz that the SLSF might have used," and then encouraged us to look at the www.steammachine.com for examples. (See thread http://www.frisco.org/vb/showthread.php?6317-Early-Frisco-Steam! posting #8)

Since Ben Neal has done lots of very nice work, a single reply (or probably even a single thread) will not do the subject justice.

Starting with a good, simple, quick one seemed a good idea. His USRA Light 2-8-2 is very close to a Frisco engine (driver diameter, cylinders and t. e.) since the Frisco 40xx locomotives were built to that specification, though they were altered pretty quickly (http://www.frisco.org/vb/showthread.php?3428-Frisco-and-the-USRA-Mikes especially post 2).

The attached picture shows the "as is" Neal USRA Light 2-8-2 leading a train of tank cars. Compare it with
http://www.frisco.org/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=1291&d=1129771132

They look close enough. Neal's headlight is pretty close to the right place though it is not a visored Pyle-National. So is the bell in the right place. However, a few of the other details are not the same, (pipes, ladders, no Coonskin, domes, smaller stack, tender coal bunker needs raised sides) but it is a decent re-skin starting point in the absence of a more exact model.

This has been an interesting exercise. As a Neal fan, I have many of his locomotives, so it will be fun to examine others with a "Frisco eye."

George Nelson

 

Thanks for starting the thread George.

So is Neal's USRA Light 2-8-2 the only model that might be suitable for a Frisco skin?

 

USRA 4-8-2 Light Mountain

Well, some are better than others. I was going to reject the USRA Light Mountain 4-8-2 out of hand as a base for the 1500-class Mountains. Inspection of the attached screenshot gives a very good reason (lettered for MoP, for heaven's sake!).

However, the specifications are fairly close. Drivers are 69" for both, though the cylinders on Neal's model are 27 x 30 while the 1500-class had 26 x 28. The effect of this is to change the attachment point for the rods relative to the wheel centers. 1500s had slightly higher tractive effort, 56,800 vs. 54,000 for the USRA 4-8-2 Neal model.

As with the 2-8-2, the headlight and bell are in the right place. The two appliances are just not the right brands. There is no coonskin, either. The 1500 smokebox front on 1502 in the photo http://www.frisco.org/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=2772&d=1143033744 is a bit flatter than on the Neal model as well.

Tender details are different. The Neal model sports a coal tender while 1502 burns oil. Aside from that, overall proportions appear close. Deftly-applied "Directoire Striping" and the right numbering type face could distract from those discrepancies.

Doing that might yield a credible and reasonably-acceptable re-skin. The coonskins create a problem. A quick thought might be to create a skinnable coonskin mesh, then attach it with the PEV attach utility. This also might work for the Pyle-National headlights. Some experimentation is needed on this front.

BTW, thanks in advance to dricketts for the heavyweight coaches and the RPO in the attachment!

George

 

The trailing trucks on the Mike and Mountain are different, too. Those are different dependencies, so this leads to a simpler (yeah, right!) correction: make a new one and use it in place of the USRA lmount b1 (kuid:96914:504781) on the mountain. Do the same for usra_lmike_b1 (kuid:96914:504791) on the Mikado.

There surely are more things to do!

George

 

Unfortunately I'm not well versed on the different nuances of steam power but I do know I need to find some more steam to run on my Highline route.

So if I'm following everyone correctly, the USRA Light 2-8-2 and USRA Light Mountain 4-8-2 would be the best candidates for reskinning without major mesh additions. You know I did a Frisco version of the heavy 2-8-2 then realized a few months later it was not the correct choice for the SLSF.

Maybe if I skin a couple different running numbers of each I could have a semi realistic running session of pure steam on my High Line route. What do ya think?


P.S.
I've got some new screen shots of my v-scale route I'll be posting soon. I think they're pretty good and hopefully some of the new scenery will be recognized.

 

Neal offers a wealth of steam. I am no expert compared to many on frisco.org, but remember some of their comments on models and locomotives over the years. Hopefully, some of the older heads will add to this thread. Meanwhile, I hope to work my way through Mr. Neal's oeuvre to give my 2 cents worth on how well each fits Frisco. I want to do that, anyway for my own education. Collias Frisco Power will be open to my left and the mouse will be in the right hand!

George Nelson

 

Sounds good. I might start working on those 2-8-2's and 4-8-4's tonight.

What about the Heavy 57" 2-8-2 Mikado. Would that be suitable for a Frisco reskin?
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Dricketts asked: "What about the Heavy 57" 2-8-2 Mikado. Would that be suitable for a Frisco reskin?"

Neal has two "Heavy 2-8-2's," the 2-8-2H and the 2-8-2M. Both have 57" drivers and 24 x 30 cylinders, so the wheels will be about 89-90% the size of the 63" drivers on the USRA-based 40xx and 1350-series 2-8-0 conversions as well as the 64" drivers on the 41xx and 42xx locomotives. Cylinders on the 41xx and 42xx are larger, too, at 27 x 32.

For a quick comparison, see http://www.frisco.org/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=4943&d=1193973086

Then look at the two attachments to see what the effect would be.

My impression is that 4100 just looks bigger all around. It is no accident, for Frisco 2-8-2's were among the largest of that type. A re-skin of either of these may appear somewhat small pulling a train. Notice how the cab line of 4100 extended across its tender top is higher than the roof of the following box car while the same line on the screenshots intersects the car end. While this is an "apples-to-oranges" comparison because the box car heights may not be the same, it illustrates the proportions.

In addition, Neal's 2-8-2H has the headlight in the wrong place and the 2-8-2M has no bell, though one could possibly fix that.

George Nelson

 

Great pics and info George. Thanks a bunch. I've been working on some reskins today. I hope I got the numbering correct with respect to the right loco. I'll post some screen shots soon.

Update:

What do you think? Did I get the numbers right on these two?

 

The 4-8-2 Mountain 1502 looks pretty good. We sure need to figure out how to make a coonskin number plate and a visored headlight, and then how to "kitbash" those onto meshes.

Using 4009 for the 2-8-2 Mikado might be a better fit since the Frisco USRA light mikados were numbered in the 40## series.

They both are nice, clean-looking re-skins.

George

 

Consider a 4-6-0 as a re-skin possibility.

Inspiration comes from Jim James recently posting the picture of Schenectady-built 739 here

http://www.frisco.org/vb/showthread.php?6356-Frisco-739-Photo&highlight=Frisco+739

Locomotives 695-741 had 63 inch drivers and 21 x 28 inch cylinders. The prototypes for Neal's 4-6-0 models for TRAINZ have 62 inch drivers, so proportions would be close.

The Schenectady locomotives generally had canted cylinders like those on 739. The Neal models do not, so the conscientious re-skinner should avoid numbers 727 - 741. The Brooks locomotives, 695-699 and 705-724 appear to have had vertical cylinders so numbering in this series would give a credible model.

Compare the "Modern" 4-6-0M (kuid:96914:4842) to Brooks-built 709.

http://www.frisco.org/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=1308&d=1129772473

Proportions seem fairly good, though the boiler is the wrong shape. In addition, there are the usual complaints: bell in the wrong place, no visor on the headlight, no coonskin number plate and so on.

Neal's inspirations were Baldwin-built, so a Baldwin product might fit better. Baldwin did build 742-799 in 5 lots in 1902-1903. Some were Vauclain compounds (different sized cylinders on different sides), though these were rebuilt simple. It is possible not all of these had 63 inch drivers, some could have had 69 inch drivers.

Neal's "Heavy" 4-6-0H (kuid:96914:4840) is the second screenshot. Compare it to Baldwin 797

http://www.frisco.org/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=3641&d=1148381487

The same complaints apply to this model as to the other one. In addition, 797 has slide-valve cylinders and the model does not. However, Collias' Frisco Power shows 776 with piston-valve cylinders, albeit with Stephenson valve gear. It is possible most of the slide valve locomotives did eventually get piston-valves in rebuilds, though I would try to find a photo proving that was the case before picking a number.

The tenders are not quite right for either of the models, but that is a common problem and someone just might model a more suitable one someday.

However, if one accepts the limitations, I think either one of the 4-6-0s could be the base for a reasonable re-skin if one views the scene from afar!

As an aside, it might be tempting to number reskins in the 1100 series because photos exist of their use on the "High Line." I would discourage this because they had 69" drivers, so the Neal models wheels would look a bit smaller than they should.

George

 

Thanks for the wealth of information.

Is the USRA Light 2-8-2 and the 2-8-2 Mikado the same model? Or... Ben modeled a USRA Light 2-8-2 and the Frisco used a 2-8-2 Mikado which is close in appearance? Sorry. Like I said I've got a lot to learn about steam.

I actually did three of the USRA Light 2-8-2's. So your saying use 40## series for them? How high did the numbers go?

 

The Frisco had four different 2-8-2's (4000's, 4100's, 4200's and 1350's) and they were all different and I don't think any of them were actual "USRA's" as such. I think the 4000's were the closest. Some of the steam gurus on here can probably clarify this better than I can (I tell them apart by their numbers ).

Tom G.

 

The Neal model you want to re-skin to get close to a Frisco 4000 2-8-2 Mikado is his "USRA Light 2-8-2," kuid:96914:4790.

This one gets closest in driver diameter and cylinder size to one the Frisco actually used.

Frisco's other 2-8-2 locomotives were just too big for a re-skin of any of the Neal 2-8-2's to act as a stand-in. It is too bad, for there are 4 in all: USRA Light, Baldwin Heavy 2-8-2H (kuid:96914:4880), Baldwin Heavy 2-8-2M (kuid:96914:4882) and the Baldwin Light 2-8-2 (kuid:96914:4820). The "Baldwin Light 2-8-2" with its 48" diameter drivers is way too small. It would make admirable light-duty power for some connecting short line, though.

George Nelson

 

2-8-0 Consolidations

Neal has 3 standard gauge 2-8-0 Consolidations: "Baldwin medium 2-8-0M" (kuid:96914:4860), "Baldwin medium 2-8-0H" (kuid:96914:55201) and the "NP F1 2-8-0 485" (kuid:96914:4850).

The two Baldwin 2-8-0's have 50 inch drivers, so they would be too small and probably unsatisfactory as starters for a Frisco re-skin since Frisco 2-8-0's after the 1920's had 57 or 63 inch drivers.

The NP F1 has 51 inch drivers (see attachment) and it looks similar to a picture of 2732 on p 21 of Lloyd Stagner's Steam Locomotives of the Frisco Line. The Stagner photo is from 1912 and the photo's caption states the locomotive was retired in 1916!

George

 

4-6-2 Pacifics

Neal offers three standard gauge 4-6-2 Pacifics in the collection of steam locomotives for TRAINZ.

The first is the "NYC K-11 4-6-2" (kuid2:96914:4760:2). This "stocky" one could be a base for one of the Pacifics in the series from 1015 - 1039 as built because it has 69 inch drivers and 26 x 26 cylinders. Frisco Power says the Frisco locomotives had 69 inch drivers and 26 x 28 cylinders. Let us ignore the fact Baldwin built the prototypes and the model is an Alco product! A look at the attachment and then at the Kansas City 1936 picture of 1017 in http://condrenrails.com/Frisco/Frisco Steam/Frisco_1000_Steam_Loco_Pixs.htm shows at least the domes are almost in the right place on the model! Frisco rebuilt some of the locomotives with larger 73 inch drivers, so modelling time is an important consideration.

The other two offerings are variations on Savanna & Atlanta 750. One is painted for excursions, "S&A 4-6-2 750 excursion" (kuid:96914:55750), and the other is the as-built locomotive, "S&A 4-6-2 750" (kuid:96914:752). The S&A prototype had 69 inch drivers and 22 x 26 inch cylinders, so these might be good starting points for Frisco Pacifics in the 1000 - 1014 range. Frisco locomotives in that group had 69 inch drivers and 21 x 26 inch cylinders. Rebuildings changed the appearance of the Frisco engines over time, so either one of these could be reasonably close for a given era. The "excursion" loco (see S&A_750_EX.jpg) almost has a "Frisco" look to it because the headlight and domes are sort of in the right places. Look at photo of 1000 on Dr. Condren's site for comparison with the screenshots.

George Nelson

 

Thanks again George for the additional info. I have the rest of the week off so I hope to complete a few more skins. In the meantime how do these look? Do I have the numbers correct given what we have to work with in Neal's models?

 

The re-skins look great!

Putting the gold stripes on 1509 and 1522 will move them in a more Frisco-direction.
The round Baldwin builder's plate is visible below the stack. Skinning the smokebox gives an opportunity to put the Nichols Siphon heart plate, too. See http://www.frisco.org/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=12430&d=1293495730 .

George

 

That's the first I've heard or noticed the gold stripe. Was that only used on 1509 and 1522? ...again I'm pretty ignorant to anything steam still. Are you saying the Baldwin plate should or shouldn't be there? Where is the smoke box?

Edit: I finally found some pics of the 4-8-2's. How does this sound for a bit of accuracy to the prototypes. Keep one as is but change to #1506. Change the other to 1508 and and add the gold pinstripping.

 

Alright so the striping was gold but what about the numbering on the tender and the loco? Did it remain white or did it very from each locomotive?