Frisco modeling. Layout space, train length, etc.

I am a recent newcomer to the Frisco "All Aboard" family and already have to eat crow on one issue so will be careful what I have to say in such a way as to not offend anyone, be it a member, guest or model manufacturer!

In this ultra modern high tech era in which we live, it appears that model railroading as a hobby has a problem attracting the younger set. Computer games seem to maintain a healthy growth pattern that model railroading can only dream of.

With families living in apartments, town houses and mobile home trailers there just isn´t enough room for a layout much larger than the traditional train board that rolls under a bed, lowers from the roof or can be leaned up against a wall. This lack of space in itself causes many potential modelers to do without a layout altogether.

One of the most well known layouts of all time is without doubt the late John Allen´s original Gorre & Daphetid HO scale layout that he constucted in a space less than four feet wide and just a wink longer than six feet! In the excellent book by Lynn Westcott, "Model Railroading with John Allen", John mentioned that despite the 15 inch radius on some curves, they would still take a car that scaled out to 50 feet in length.

Applying this layout to Frisco practice is perfect for any era, be it steam powered with a 2-8-0 for freight and a gas electric "doodlebug" for passenger servce, dieselized with an SW1 or contemporary operations with a GP15.

I had considered adopting this layout design for my own freelanced version of the Frisco myself. By freelancing the prototype I can take liberties that I can´t if I were to model the Frisco tie by tie and count all the rivets.

The other classic layout I considered was the Atlas 4X6 "Simplicity & Great Plains" featured in their layout book "Six Atlas HO Layouts you can Build". This layout is flat as a pancake and I was even going to use the S&GP name as a Frisco subsidiary much like the QA&P.

Alas, I wanted something larger in scale that my retired eyes can see. I just turned 65 on July 4th! My best friend passed away suddenly at age 59 in April 2006. His half-sister sold off his O scale trains before any of the gang in Tampa, Florida, could put their claim to any of the All Nation diecast or the US Hobby brass diesels. He also had three Oriental GP7´s that I had put "dubs" on if he decided to sell them. His untimely passing slamed the derail on top of that rail!

I am still looking towards O scale despite the space limitations in my apartment. I have stacked out a claim along the 18 foot long livingroom wall! Model Railroader ran a series on how to construct the Pioneer Valley in O scale. It was later reprinted in a layout book as well. It was only 12 feet in length and had a width no wider than 30 inches.

I have also gained additional knowledge from Lance Mindheim´s excellent site at www.shelflayouts.com. He has also released several layout books and the photos on his site of the CSX Miami, Florida, industrial switching pikes on shelves are fantastic! I have lived in Florida and it is impossible to tell if the photos are HO model or prototype!

For power on the PV, a Red Caboose GP7 was used. Freight cars were comtemporary for the 1980s. This is perfect for the period just after the Frisco was merged into the BN! I found a source for beautiful photo etched brass diesels and flat cars on the www.proto48.org site. Mike Calvert offers O scale models of EMD SW1500s, Alco RS1s and S2s and the GE U30B. His Gilmaur O scale model site is listed at the bottom of the proto48 home page.

I have found models that I can roster on a generic industrial switching layout in a scale that I can see and operate without having 20/20 vision and piano playing fingers (I was born with 10 thumbs!). I can construct a single track mainline around the remaining three walls without scenery to permit the trains to disappear from the town and also give the diesels a good shake down after being serviced.

There will be a couple of other railroads featured who will interchange with the Frisco. I was employed as a switchman with the Cotton Belt and Santa Fe in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area from 1967-1976 before my move to Germany. Thus I can relate to these roads as well, not to mention the Santa Fe´s East Dallas Yard facility was a joint agency for the Frisco!

A real treet was when a coal train bound for the Texas & Northern Railway for delivery to Lone Star Steel would arrive at night under a big fat Texas sized full moon behind a trio of SD45s! They were handed to the Louisiana & Arkansas (Kansas City Southern) who left town behind a set of faded Deramus red F units or freshly painted GP30s. As a Santa Fe switchman, I removed the Frisco caboose and coupled red portholed or stainless steel bay window KCS cabs to the outbound train.

The Frisco in turn picked up a track full of empty coal hoppers for the return trip to Oklahoma. Prototype railroading never got better! Great days, great memories! My slide collection was left at a friend´s house in Dallas when I made the move to Germany and were stolen. So much for my collection boys!

One last comment before I hang the markers on this train. If you just gotta have that certain diesel model running on your pike and you don´t want it painted for a railroad other than the Frisco and the SL-SF didn´t roster that model, just paint it up for a demonstrator and tack a Frisco caboose on the rear of the train and you are set to go! And if your layout won´t handle long freights, just run a caboose hop! It is still pure Frisco from the lead diesel´s pilot to the caboose markers!

Joe Toth
The Trinity River Bottoms Boomer

 

Hi Joe:

Haven't been around here much of late, but just read your post. As for size vs space, have you taken a serious look at S scale? You may be as pleasantly surprised as I was. In fact, I switched to S scale and have really enjoyed the change. Though I'm not as active at modeling as I was when I was younger, when I do benchwork trains, it is S scale.

Below you will see a picture of an S scale SW9 that I painted/decaled for the Frisco. Note that I added NO detail. The model is exactly as it came, sans paint/decals/weathering. My engine has factory installed/programed DCC w/Tsunami sound. There is an orange and white Frisco SW9 available in factory paint and w/wo DCC/sound. It could be run as is, or with some weathering. These SHS models run SUPERB, even better than the HO Kato I used to have.

In addition to quality equipment in S scale, there is flex track available, prefab switches, etc, etc.



The other medium you could consider is "V scale", my term for computer simulation. The only space you need is room for your computer! There is a lot of good quality V scale equimpent avaiable for Microsoft's "Train Simulator" program. (Or MSTS for short.) When I do V scale, I use MSTS.

V scale is very cost effective, with literally thousands of engines, rolling stock, routes (layouts), structures, etc, available to the enthusiast for free.

Sooo... don't give up on the never ending "space vs desire" problem! There may be a better solution by looking "outside the box" as they say!

Best of luck with whatever you decide.

Andre Ming

 

My layout is on a shelf, about 20 by 12. To some it is a small layout, in retrospect I wish I had gone somewhat smaller and spent more time on each scene.
I am also influenced by Lance Mindheim's work. He certainly has found a corner of the world that is unique with all the small structures needed freight car service.
I don't think I could find anything close to that in the KC area. Finally, type "New Castle Industrial Railroad" in your browser. A website will come up with a gentleman that was building an interesting O scale layout on a shelf. His O guage freight cars are pretty neat. He went silent about January, don't know what happened there.

Finally, I've never understood the appeal of the G and D and John Armstrong trackplans. Some of those in MR I couldn't even figure out tracing with my finger, let alone build them.

 

Thank you Andre and Boomer John,

I have given a lot of thought about S scale if I re-enter model railroading at that. American Models and SHS both offer enough diesel models to build a roster of Frisco power. There is a track manufacturer who offers a track system with real wood ties much like the Tru-Scale Ready-Track that I used in HO in the 70s. Bill McClanahan of Dallas, who wrote a scenery book for Kalmbach, also used it on his freelanced Texas & Rio Grande Western. I have even considered using the T&RGW name as a Frisco subsidiary as if the Frisco regained the Ft. Worth & Rio Grande that they had owned at one time. A Texas & Rio Grande shows up at the beginning of the John Wayne movie "The Sons of Katie Elder". The introduction features D&RGW narrow gauge whereas the movie, filmed in Mexico, has a T&RG train arriving at Clearwater, Texas. I like the freedom offered with freelancing. Of course there would be pooled Frisco power as well as sublettered T&RGW diesels and QA&P!

Andre, your SW9 is beautiful! I would be most interested in the SHS Frisco boxcars. They have offered several versions with multiple numbers. How close do they work for Frisco? I am not a rivet countin´ modeler and can accept a generic car that comes close to representing a specific prototype. I am in the hobby to enjoy entertaining myself and not building models to enter into shows and walk away with an award. By no means do I intend to cut these guys or gals short. There is a place in our hobby for a Lionel or American Flyer Frisco layout or one built to fine scale skills. John Allen always said he enjoyed visiting other layouts regardless of scale or skill level. The one poor Frisco fan who posted the question on the Z scale forum may be the only Z scaler modeling Frisco but I would enjoy visiting him and watching a Frisco train run on his layout too!

Boomer John´s question regarding John Allen´s Gorre & Daphetid layout is most interesting. His original layout in the small space it required is perfect for apartments, town houses or even trailer homes as I mentioned earlier. Allen expanded the layout and indeed I even gave it some thought about it as it would fit in my livingroom albeit some two feet shorter in length. His famous layout with the floor to celing mountain scenery in his second home is another question altogether. He admits that as he grew older he even started to forget how to operate parts of it by himself. Large isn´t always better or the answer to the dream layout design.

Both Allen and Armstrong were respected model railroaders but their layout designs left me looking crosseyed and with derailed fingers as well! Just think about the cost of trackwork alone? The layouts featured in the layout book "Six Atlas HO Railroads you can Build" are more to my liking. The Simplicity & Great Plains is beautiful layout design for a 4X6 sheet of plywood. The shelf layout featuring an industrial theme is interesting in itself and can be built as a stand alone or combined with other layouts to increase operating possiblities. The last layout in the book, the Central Midland, is, as the text describes, a scaled down version of St. Louis Union Station. It requires a basement, attic or special built building to accomodate its size but it can most certainly handle the Texas Special for example and a TRRA switcher or two as well. My eyes don´t cross nor do my fingers derail when tracing any of these layouts. They may be geared towards the beginner but even at 65 I still enjoy thumbing through the publication as they bring back fond memories when I made the change from Lionel 027 to HO and the Simplicity & Great Plains would be perfect for a Frisco theme layout in my apartment even in S scale!

Adding to Boomer John´s comment regarding industrial operations like the CSX has in Miami, Florida, and modeled by Lance Mindheim. There is possibly something simular even in Kansas City. www.denverrails.com has some neat photos shot in Denver, Colorado, and there are still some areas like these in many cities. There is a site featuring a neighborhood in Jacksonville, Florida, that also has a few active rail sidings. One layout theme I have yet to discover on any site is a railcar rebuilding facility. A perfect place to "store" all those freight cars purchased other than in their boxes! Small diesel switchers or Trackmobiles are perfect for such an industry. If anyone has or has seen such an industry so modeled please let us know! Abandoned sidings with asphalt covering up the rails where they crossed a street and even an abandoned warehouse would make a great scene in itself. A boxcar spotted on the track just off the mainline with a couple of ties serving as a bumper just before the track disappears under the asphalt at the street itself with weeds growing up around the ties is like a masterpiece painting in my eyes and Lance has captured these little details beautifully with his CSX layouts!

I will take a long second look at S scale, Andre. It has appealled to me for quite sometime at that!

Joe Toth
The Trinity River Bottoms Boomer

 

Hi Again Joe:

Thanks for the kind words about #306. I enjoyed creating it. I really can't say concerning the SHS Frisco boxcars, for I don't have any. My Frisco "technical knowledge" is quite limited to the years of my interest, and I recall the SHS cars/schemes pre-dating my era of interest. (My era is early-mid 1960's.)

When I was first seriously interested in S scale, I decided the ONLY way I was going to know for sure was to risk some "venture capital". So, I purchased a state-of-the-art SHS SW9 (factory painted in the O&W scheme... and still available at SHS, by the way!), some flex track, and a couple of American Models boxcars. S scale was everything I hoped it would be and more, so I took the plunge. IF S scale had not been for me, I have learned that many S models (scale models, not American Flyer) hold their value exceptionally well. In fact, some items sell on the used market for MORE than they originally sold for. This is a blessing/curse. Blessing if you're trying to move something, a curse if it's an item you want! However, patience is a virtue and I have snagged some good S scale values off eBay.

IF you are registered with Yahoo (it's free), a great place to ask S-specific questions is the S Scale Yahoo list that I am a part of. Lots of great guys that (like all email lists) can talk things to death BUT... there is SO MUCH S SCALE knowledge it is incredible. I highly recommend it. Here's a direct link to the S Scale list's Yahoogroups home page:

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/S-Scale/?yguid=330752852

Seeing as you're pinched for space, you could consider turning to the theme that I have turned to: Switching in an industrial area. In my case, I am loosely modeling memories from one of my old haunts in KC: The West Bottoms. With industrial switching, you can have LOTS to do in a very small space. AND... you can run switchers (small) and tons of 40' equipment (depending on era choice).

Using 18" to 24" deep around-the-wall shelving, I suspect you can have a very nice little switching operation that will not require a small fortune in equipment. I set mine about 58" high (I'm 6'1") and this yields benchwork that is high enough to allow my hobby work station, my computer work station, book shelves, etc, to fit nicely underneath the layout that's in this spare bedroom. In my case, I was able to work in a double track mainline for continuous running and to act as a fiddle area for inboud/outbound transfer runs/etc to 12th St. Yard. Plus, the main(s) can serve as a place to just kick back and watch a train (or trains) run when I just want to groove to the sight/sound of my creations.

Well... I've rambled on long enough. Hopefully I've given you some more to think about.

Andre Ming

 

Howdy Andre,

You sure know how to high pressure a guy into making a choice to model in S scale! In reality, my best friend, who passed away suddenly at age 59 in 2006, and I had talked S scale for a number of years. I was introduced by him to Bill Wade when he lived near Tampa, Florida. Bill runs BTS and had a real nice S scale layout on his property. Robert had had Lionel O gauge as a kid and made the change to HO about the same time I did in 1960. He returned to O, albeit 2-rail scale, in the 70s. He had a compact layout in a detached garage and operated All Nation and US Hobbies diesels and freight cars that came from everywhere. He made the tragic mistake of acquiring too much equipment and not make a primary study to determine just what time period to model so he had steam to diesel transition and modern cars as well. I still see layouts, even in Model Railroader, with 1960s era railroads running traditional "steam era" boxcars without catwalks! MR could have done better than that when they visited the layouts to photograph for magazine publication or study the photos carefully before selecting ones sent in for presentation for an upcoming artical! A beautiful early 60s Jenks Blue Mopac N scale layout comes to mind.

I still love O scale and the Proto 48 movement is both exciting as well as appealing to me. On the other hand I was born with ten thumbs and handlaid track is a project I would never attempt to put into motion. Scale Trax´s S scale track system with real wood ties is simular to the Tru-Scale Ready Track that I used in HO in the 70s. It is affordable and looks great through my 65 year old eyes.

I have a friend who lives near Tulsa who custom painted for Bobbye Hall in Dallas back in the 60s and 70s. He told me he even had modeled the Frisco with Lionel O gauge equipment back in the late 50s before he made the move to HO. I hope when I can get the current medical issue and fixed income retirement checks under control I can proceed to plan and acquire locomotives and equipment for the dream layout. I have two brass locomotives in HO scale to dispose of and three Athearn 1:50 diecast vehicles that I want to sell and use the funds to invest in the first of the S scale models. I am going to try to get Eddie Chambers, the master builder and professional painter in question, to do the honors of decoration.

I will probably model 1961. This is the Frisco that holds the most memories for me. The summer of 61 is when I really started to railfan in earnest and the F units and FAs that brought the evening southbound freight down from Sherman through Carrollton on its way to Ft. Worth was railroading at its finest for a 15 year old teen!

I might consider going after the SHS Frisco boxcars that have been issued to date and run a FFF now and then just for the shear fun of running a vintage freight behind steam. Would I love to have a 2-10-0 in S? Is a pig´s rear end pork? Some dreams will never come true of course but I do want to do more research on the SHS Frisco boxcars, both the tan FFFs and the boxcar reds. Mabie we can get some Frisco Folks to assist in this quest and then post it on the S scale page?

If you have posted your models please direct me to the proper page. If you haven´t please consider!

Joe Toth
The Trinity River Bottoms Boomer

 

Hi Joe:

It really wasn't my intention to sound "preachy" about S scale. I really like it, but it may/may not be for you. It IS a wonderful size, not too big, not too small. It's size allowed me to gain about 33% more layout on the same benchwork by switching from O 3 rail to S scale AND I can still see and feel the heft of the trains. Downside for many is the lack of selection compared to HO scale, and possibly O 2 rail.

I probably won't get to it tonight, but within a couple evenings I'll put together a post in the S scale forum that will have a few of my low-quailty pictures of some of my models and in-process layout. I think most of the pics have been posted here at one time or another.

Anyway, once I have the post up, I'll return to this thread and post a link.

See 'ya then!

Andre

 

Howdy Andre,

You do preach a good sermon on S scale! I have visited the S scale sites so often the last couple of years it is a wonder no one complained that I was wearing them out! I just can´t talk myself into the mass produced HO market anymore. If I did return to HO it would be select brass models with custom paint jobs and not the ones that every kid on the block has. I have been giving a lot of thought about just what to obtain and then what to paint and letter specific freight cars. For example, looking through railroad books like the ones on the Frisco and you can observe a lot of the cars in a train, yard, or spotted at an industry.

Of course they all weren´t on the railroad at the same time but they were on the Frisco or a subsidiary at one time. I would then select the cars I would consider for my layout and then custom paint, letter and number same. Frisco locomotives and equipment is easiest of course since most travelled the line from the Southeast to the Southwest and possibly ran over the AT&N or QA&P as well. The foreign line cars, like an M-K-T with their slogan "The Katy Serves the Southwest Well", probably show up in photos shot on the Frisco and you can number a boxcar from the car seen in a photo. I feel this is better than just slapping some number on a car and putting it on the layout with a "mabie" it ran on the Frisco, mabie not?

So you can see, this S scale "thing" isn´t a recent fling with me but goes back some 25 years or so. I have been an armchair model railroader ever since I made the move to Germany in December 76. I have done a lot of "window shopping" from Z to G. I always landed back on the S scale sites! My problem has been the lack of a modeler in S scale to discuss this with. I will say this about that though...the layouts I have observed in the magazines, MR and RMC for the most part, seem to be well thought out and the guys (there are probably a few gals in S too? Alice Morris who runs H&R Trains in Pinellas Park, Florida, in the Tampa Bay area, started with an American Flyer S gauge train!) all claim they wouldn´t change scales again and quite a few regret not choosing S scale earlier when they made the decision to enter the hobby!

I now look back and wish that I had received the American Flyer Texas & Pacific freight set with the dual GP7s and the Frisco gondola when I was a kid! I ran the wheels off of the Lionel 027 that I received for Christmas 1951 but only because the old Sears store in Dallas on Ross Avenue had a working Lionel layout set up. My grandparents visited that store often and always took me along. My grandfather took me to the toy department and let me watch with wide opened eyes at the Lionel trains run along that 3 rail racetrack. I just had to have a Lionel! Too bad they weren´t Flyer with the T&P geeps. They came along a few years later of course.

So don´t carry a guilty feeling around with you. I hope that other Frisco Folks who read this and model in S scale or have considered changing to S will take note and post their own observations. Even if they model another railroad like Katy, Cotton Belt, some other carrier or freelance, be it in the Southeast or Southwest and their railroad interchanges with the Frisco, by all means please make your comments known!

Joe Toth
The Trinity River Bottoms Boomer

 

Thanks for the tip regarding the Frisco Layout Design Catalog! I did take liberty to post two HO layouts that have always interested me and due to their size can be easily constructed in all the scales from Z to G be it in a suitcase (Z) or attic, basement or family room (TT to O). Though generic in appearance both can provide a nice Frisco theme model railroad even with prototype specific structures like a depot.

It looks like the FLDC is off to a great start with ideas coming from all the Frisco Folks who can apply these ideas to their own personal layout design. Greatest creation since the FFF service!

Joe Toth
The Trinity River Bottoms Boomer

 

As threatened, here's a link to my post concerning my S scale efforts:

http://www.frisco.org/vb/showthread.php?5417-West-Bottoms-In-S-Scale&p=37715#post37715

See you there!

Andre Ming

 

Thanks Andre!

Anyone with even a remote interest in S scale or just wanting to look at some super cool modeling check out this post now!

Joe Toth
The Trinity River Bottoms Boomer