Frisco Line Abandonments

Discussion in 'General' started by RogerRT, May 20, 2021.

  1. RogerRT

    RogerRT Staff Member Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Here is the latest Frisco track abandonment list...I also have a big stack of abandonment's from the Federal Register starting in the early 1970's to add so this is by no means a complete list...Roger
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Iantha_Branch

    Iantha_Branch Member

    Thanks for the new list. Look forward to seeing updates.
     
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  3. Coonskin

    Coonskin Member

    I echo Nathan: Thanks for uploading this.

    It was gratifying to see that my memories were substantiated. I have memories of seeing loaded coal cars at Huntington shortly after moving to that region in Jan of '69. I also recall seeing a gondola (likely part of the scrapping operation) shortly after. However, I never saw an engine on that portion of the line then.

    Saw engines on the Jenson to Montreal portion several times, though. Got the pics to prove it, so I didn't dream it!

    Andre
     
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  4. Roger

    Outstanding!

    This fills in a lot history I have looking for.

    Thanks!

    Charlie
     
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  5. Gadabout

    Gadabout Member

    21 MAY 2021 First, let me say thanks to all who replied. I am a relatively new contributor to railroad history and very new (about ½ year) to this website, so I know neither the people nor the background contexts for much of what I read. Also am inexperienced with using this or similar sites (the question posed was my first post - Mike Sypult gave me a helping hand over the phone), so I hope this attempt at a reply does not go into a black hole.
    To “RogerRT”: Downloaded your file … that's a lot of research! Do the abandonment dates in your most recent list indicate when ICC/STB approved the abandonment, or are they some other date?
    As for the line between Carl Jct and Opolis, Karl had a May 1959 date for ICC approval. ETT 42 of Sept 1959 shows the line. Does anyone know if this suggests a lag time between date-of-removal-approval and actual removal, or were perhaps tracks already removed in Sep 1959 but the TT folks had not caught up with real time events?
     
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  6. RogerRT

    RogerRT Staff Member Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    I'll have to get back to you about how the dates are received, it's a rather long answer & it's Monday for me and I have be at work @0630...Roger
     
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  7. RogerRT

    RogerRT Staff Member Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    This is my understanding of how abandonment's are conducted, I don't speak lawyer so this is just my interpretation of the procedure, please correct me if I am wrong...

    There 3 different dates when a line is abandoned, Decided, Served & Effective...In a typical rail abandonment a decision is handed down by the ICC/STB, this is the Decided portion...The decision is not official until it is published in the Federal Register, that is the Served portion...Once the abandonment is published in the Federal Register a 60-day clock begins for the RR to notify customers, run last rains, or even withdraw the abandonment application, Frisco did this with the QAP in 1977...On the 61st day the RR can begin taking up the tracks, this is the Effective portion...That is why some of the dates are different, some use the the Decided, some use the Served, etc...I prefer to use the Effective date as the official date...

    There are a whole myriad of things can effect the abandonment such as the embargo's, bridges burned, washouts, etc...which are not abandonment dates though some consider them to be...Some consider the date of the last train the official abandonment date, which is incorrect, typically it is the next day...

    Usually the tracks are removed 2-3 years after the effective date but not always such as the Fayetteville, AR.-Dills, OK. line in 1942...The line had been condemned account of construction of Lake Ft.Gibson & Frisco had applied for abandonment but the government needed the steel for WWII, so they went in there & took the rails up about a month before the ICC rendered a decision...Or in the case of the 1918 Midway-Osceola, AR. abandonment, the JLC&E applied for abandonment, the government refused to grant it so the JLC&E went ahead & took it up anyway...Confused yet???Roger
     
  8. qaprr

    qaprr Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Excellent Explanation!
     
  9. Iantha_Branch

    Iantha_Branch Member

    Very nice way of explaining how that all works. What I have never understood is why abandonments had to be approved. Like the situation with the JLC&E you referenced, what happens when the railroad ignores the government and does what it wants to anyway?
     
  10. gjslsffan

    gjslsffan Staff Member Staff Member

    We should be glad there is a review process. It sometimes leads to the tracks not being abandoned, it gives affected parties a venue to address concerns as well as other carrier, or short lines opportunities. The thought of letting RRs do what they want when they want is not a good thing all the time. I mean that's why they call it "getting railroaded".
     
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  11. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    If I may provide another couple of Frisco examples. I have attached first page of the ICC Docket, in which the Frisco petitioned the ICC to abandon a portion of the Osceola Subdivision, nee KCCS, between Stanley, KS and Belton, MO. The ICC rendered its verdict on August 30, 1928. The Frisco had thirty days to give notice for the cancellation of tariffs for this portion of the line. ICC_Docket_stanley_belton_iii.jpg

    Once the Frisco received ICC permission and the 30 days had expired, the Frisco wasted little time before it generated the retirement AFE. `The attached valuation map provides the retirement date. On October 1, 1928, the Frisco generated an AFE to cover the abandonment expenses for the Stanley - Belton segment. In my book, the AFE date is probably the best “official” abandonment date.

    stanley.JPG

    In a case where where the track lingered for years after operations, I would point to the KCCS line to Pleasant Hill. Operation over this branch ceased circa 1904, but the track remained in place until circa 1916. Please see the attached pdf file, Echoes of Home, courtesy Brad Scott. The Frisco annual reports that ante-date the mid 50’s are very good with regard to reporting abandonments. I believe that one reason that the line remained until 1916 was to maintain value (collateral) for the KCCS bonds. Once the Frisco left bankruptcy during 1916, there was no need to keep the track.

    This last example, represent a situation in which ICC did not grant the entire request for abandonment. On November 22, 1933, the Frisco petitioned the ICC to abandon the Chadwick Branch between Chadwick and Galloway. The protestants made a sufficient case so that when the ICC issued its decision on July 3, 1934, it required the Frisco to continue operation between Galloway and Ozark. Abandonment work began during September.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. timothy_cannon

    timothy_cannon Member Frisco.org Supporter

  13. Iantha_Branch

    Iantha_Branch Member

    As with some of the other threads on this site, I have taken the time to convert the txt file to an excel file. Converting to excel makes it much easier to add in data as we find more, and sort/search what we have so far. I have added columns to indicate division, sub division and branch line to make it easier to find groups of abandonments in a certain location. I'm not sure about using the column for division though since many subs got shifted between divisions over time. Thoughts?

    This is what I have so far, it'll take some time to start adding sub divisions and branches.
     

    Attached Files:

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  14. RogerRT

    RogerRT Staff Member Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Once the Frisco received ICC permission and the 30 days had expired, the Frisco wasted little time before it generated the retirement AFE. `The attached valuation map provides the retirement date. On October 1, 1928, the Frisco generated an AFE to cover the abandonment expenses for the Stanley - Belton segment. In my book, the AFE date is probably the best “official” abandonment date.

    Couple of things-
    Submitted refers to when applied to the ICC/STB for abandonment...

    I think 30 days is the norm, for some reason I was thinking 60 days, I stand corrected...

    AFE is what they called it in Springfield, Effective is the term used in Washington, both are the same thing...

    Below the attached abandonment of the Wister-Antlers, OK. line is typical of the late 1970's...

    Roger
     

    Attached Files:

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  15. RogerRT

    RogerRT Staff Member Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter


    The reason I did it in notepad is because it is free & easy to use, by doing it in Excel you need Microsoft Office...I have an Excel copy but it's so finicky when it comes to dates & numbers I don't like using it...I'll post my copy so you can see the template I used but keep in mind it hasn't been updated for many years...

    I don't use subdivisions for the exact reason you cited, you have to settle for a certain date & time...For example the Hi-Line was part of the Eastern & Northern Divisions at times...Roger
     

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    Last edited: Jun 11, 2021 at 11:10 AM
  16. RogerRT

    RogerRT Staff Member Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Attached is an updated abandonment list I've completed to 1934, I put about a 3 line break to signify where I have completed...The * means something has been added or changed...After I posted the 1st on I noticed that the Joplin/Galena area needed some clarification, I tried to clean it up but it's real tough to document without a map...Roger
     

    Attached Files:

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  17. Gadabout

    Gadabout Member

    RogerRT, thank you for the explanation and the abandonment list. Gadabout
     
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