Business Car SLSF XXXX - Frisco Numbers, Renumbers, Names, Renames, Etc. - Updated

Tom,

Right, there is a thread on the last business car SLSF 2.

Please see the following thread.

http://www.frisco.org/shipit/index.php?threads/business-car-2.848/

I have posted seven photographs in my collection of this car. Three of these are in green paint, one in Mandarin orange and white, and the rest are photographs of the car in BN paint.

There is almost enough information in that thread by itself to model the car. The only thing missing is the general arrangement diagram, which is necessary to determine correct window spacings.

Fortunately, I have a copy of the Robert Del Grosso book 1992 Burlington Northern Annual which includes a general arrangement diagram of both former Frisco cars while in BN service.

Paul

 

The photographs I posted, along with the ones Paul posted and linked make a text book of photographs of the appearance of the business car "Saint Louis" over the years.

- Named "Saint Louis" in Pullman green and pin stripes - early 1950s.
- Numbered SLSF 2 (2nd) in Pullman green and pin stripes - early 1960s.
- Numbered SLSF 2 (2nd) in Pullman green without pin stipes - late 1960s,
- Numbered SLSF 2 (2nd) in Mandarin orange and white - 1970s.
- Finally in BN green - 1980s.

I do not have any further information on the business cars beyond the end of the Frisco era and the BN merger.

The car names on the business car draftsman's drawing that was posted by Karl Brand are "Oklahoma", "Tennessee", "Alabama", and "Springfield". The business car with "Missouri" crossed off.

So why business car "Oklahoma" is on the list, as it was rebuilt from a different type car than the others, and business car "Saint Louis" is not, is still a mystery.

Also why was business car "Missouri" crossed off?

Tom

 

Tom,

Both Frisco cars lasted through the BN era to become BNSF.

Business car SLSF 1 (2nd) became BNA7 first named "Canadian River" and then renamed "Kootenai River". After the BNSF merger, BNA7 became BNSF 82 and retained the name "Kootenai River". BNSF 82 is used as a research and test car.

Please see the following link for BNA7 in the late BN era executive train colors.

http://www.trainpix.com/bn/PASSCAR/BUSINESS/A7.HTM

Please see the following link for a photograph of the car in the BNSF era. Note that BNSF replaced the 3 axle trucks with 2 axle trucks.

http://www.railcarphotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=10411

Business Car SLSF 2 (2nd) became BNA9 "Meramec River" and is now on display at the BNSF headquarters in Ft. Worth, TX as the renamed "James J. Hill". Please see the following link for a photograph of the car as "James J. Hill".

see:http://oddballsdecals.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=204811

As to why "Saint Louis" is not listed, the BN era drawings I mentioned earlier tell that story.

The business car SLSF 1 (2nd) as renumbered BNA7 is shown as being 82'-7 5/8" over the coupler faces with a 70'-11 11/16" inside length and 55'-4" truck centers. The business car SLSF 2 as renumbered BNA9 is shown as being 86'-2 5/8" over the coupler faces with a 75'-1" inside length and 59'-9" truck centers.

BN did not change any of the physical dimensions of the car. They did not even change any of the window placements. So the only explanation is that when "Saint Louis" was rebuilt from its prior use, it was built to a different set of plans than the cars listed on the drawing Karl posted.

The drawing of BNA7 in the Del Grosso book shows the same floor plan that Karl's drawing shows, so I have no idea why business car "Missouri" is crossed off the list in Karl's drawing.

Paul

 

How about just one more?

I believe this car is the the former Kansas City, Ft. Scott and Memphis (KCFS&M) business car KCFS&M 200 that was donated to the National Museum of Transportation at St. Louis in 1949.

Probably photographed at the museum circa 1959. Photograph by Jerry Moore from the Pat Coughlin collection.

Tom

 

Tom,

The photograph of business car "Saint Louis" is at Fort Smith, AR, on 8/20/1961

Either Louis Marre or I took it. We were both there at the time.

 

Gordon,

Sorry your photograph was not properly credited.

I have lots of photographs purchased at train shows and flea markets that are blank on the reverse with no information whatsoever.

I will edit the information on my post.

Tom

 

Well, I think I have figured out which car became the Ontario Northwestern Railroad (ONR) business car "Moosonee".

It is not the business car "Tennessee", which is the car named in some histories of the Kansas City Southern (KCS) business car KCS 1887 "Arthur E. Stillwell", later renamed "Laredo", now operating as Iowa Interstate (IAIS) business car IAIS 100 "Hawkeye". The answer, at least for me was staring me right in the face.

I mentioned earlier that although business cars that were rebuilt around the same time looked alike, they still have detail differences, and this is true of the group of cars rebuilt by the Frisco.

Although broadside views of the business cars are not all that plentiful, there are minor variations among the details that can be found. If one looks close enough, that identifies one car from another. Because of this, I believe I have found an answer to which car was the "Moosonee".

The first photograph is of business car SLSF 3, former SLSF 4, renumbered from "Oklahoma", taken by Mike Condren in 1967. Note the shape of the metal awning above the open end platform, which is thinner and shaped differently than any of the other Frisco business cars from this group. Please see the following link.

http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.c...SF_Business_Car_Harry_S_Truman.jpg&redirect=1

http://www.frisco.org/shipit/index.php?attachments/biz_car_oklahoma_001-emailed-jpg.4383/

https://condrenrails.com/Frisco Catalog/Others/FR544.jpg

http://www.cbu.edu/~mcondren/Frisco Catalog/Others/FR543.jpg

The second photograph is a shot of the Ontario Northland's business car "Moosonee", taken by Don Smith. Note that the metal awning above the open end platform is shaped the same way.

Because of this I have reason to believe that the ONR car is formerly the "Oklahoma" and not the "Tennessee", as has been reported in several roster lists on the web. Please see the following link.

https://www.onrhts.org/More-Galleries/Passenger-Service/Passenger-Equipment/i-XKdRtcb/XL

https://www.onrhts.org/More-Galleries/Passenger-Service/Passenger-Equipment/i-gGdZf6D/XL

https://www.onrhts.org/More-Galleries/Passenger-Service/Passenger-Equipment/i-k2dwP7T/XL

http://users.thot.net/lalande/jamesleo/DS12.htm

Thoughts, comments?

Edit 6/4/2024: Repaired broken link to Mike Condren's web site. It is no longer hosted by the Christian Brothers University web site in Memphis, TN. Added additional photograph links to business car "Oklahoma".

Repaired broken link and added new image links to business car ONW "Moonosee".

Repaired broken links and added ne image links.
MKD

 

Now to tackle the history of Wisconsin Central (WC)/Sault Ste. Marie Bridge Company (SSAM) business car 100 "Superior".

One of the most obvious detail differences between the "Superior" and other Frisco heritage business cars is the placement of the vent above the hallway window on that side of the car. Unlike all but one car, this vent was typically placed either centered over the window or slightly to the left of center, with its left edge nearly even with the window's left edge.

I have been rather puzzled about it, not having had the time to really look well at what has now been posted to the web, but I believe I now have an answer about this car.

In looking at the images Tom posted of business car SLSF 2 and renamed "Tennessee", same car, different dates, I noticed that this car had the same vent offset to the right of the center line for the window, just as had the "Superior".

Also, the metal awning on the open end platform is shaped the same, even including the rivet line that shows in the end shot of business car SLSF 2, though it is hard to make out on the images that I have available to me.

Below are four links to images of the WC/SSAM 100 "Superior". Note the vent placement in comparison to the images posted above by Tom. It is compelling evidence.

http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=661132

http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=980659

http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=839816

http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=212830

Thoughts, comments, ideas?

 

I do not have any more information or details to add regarding Frisco business cars after the bold Mandarin orange and white and the awful BN green schemes were applied.

I do wonder why those rich guys who wind up buying retired business cars paint them in colors that looked like they had been picked out by their wives at Home Depot!

Tom

 

Tom,

Because they often have to live with those wives on the car!

 

The attached file was scanned from Alan's excellent series in the former Frisco Museum's All Aboard from years ago.

Individual issues are downloadable from Mike Condren's web site.

For your enjoyment.

Doug

 

I may have a little insight to offer here.

I was the person who purchased the now "Superior" for the Wisconsin Central (WC). I can tell you that it was not the "Moosonee", because both cars were located at Texas Tank Car Works at the same time when I purchased the car which became "Superior". In fact there was a third former SLSF business cars there at the same time.

I can also give what I remember. When we purchased the car, there was still a framed blueprint of the floor plan of the car in the hallway adjacent to the kitchen which indicated that the car, in SLSF use, was the business car SLSF 2, "Tennessee".

Texas Tank Car Works had replaced the floor in the kitchen area and the kitchen hallway area, and made some internal modifications of a minor nature in the kitchen area. The air conditioning system was also replaced during the time the car was in the previous ownership as the "Montana", but the conversion was done with no changes to the interior of the car.

I have spent a lot of time looking at business cars over the years. I have found that the Frisco or SLSF design was the best thought out and best implemented that I have seen.

I would like to find another former Frisco car now.

 

Nice to be proven correct, even if it did take over 4 years.

What I mentioned before still remains true. While you can have a large number of business cars built to the same plan, the vents on the roof will not be the same unless a full replacement of the roof is undertaken.

This is how I have been able to spot which Southern business cars became which privately owned car, as well as subsequent renumbering. And I have documentation now, that I did not use to have, that backs me up on the Southern Railroad cars.

Now where did you say to send that steak dinner after you confirmed my speculation? LOL!

 

Hi All,

I have been doing some research into Burlington Northern business cars "Kootenai River", formerly SLSF 1, and "Saint Louis" and "Meramec River", formerly SLSF 2, and "Missouri", for some models in HO Scale.

During the correspondence with someone as we worked to figure out the passenger car trucks used under both of these cars, I was sent some photographs of Pullman business car 200, "Louis W. Grant". It is painted in Pullman colors with gold color lettering, but no pin stripes, with the initials SL-SF on the observation end of the car.

The photographs were taken in Houston, TX in the early to mid to 1970s. One of the shots shows a slogan on the outside railing of the open observation platform that states "You will enjoy doing business with people who care".

Can anyone tell me about the car?

Is this a former Frisco passenger or business car?

If so, is there any reason why it would not show up in the PDF document that Tom put together documenting the Frisco business car fleet?

James

 

James,

This was not a Frisco passenger or business car.

The information I have seen, which Jerry Laboda posted on another site, is that the car was a Pullman company lease car.

Jerry can probably elaborate.

Paul

 

Originally built as a Pullman leaser private car named "Henry Stanley" in 1927, it was sold to the Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe (ATSF) in 1944 where it became ATSF 20.

It was never a Frisco passenger or business car.

 

Jerry,

Thank you for the information.

It was back in Pullman colors, albeit with the SL-SF markings by the early 1970s. I assume that Pullman was done by then.

Being a Pullman private lease car, could it have been assigned to the SLSF at some point?

Wonder when the Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe (ATSF) got rid of the car?

James

 

As a private car leaser it was used by wealthy individuals and company heads to travel to various places, as deemed necessary by the one leasing it from Pullman.

Some of these wealthy individuals included actors, actresses, financiers, and even railroad executives for lines that later acquired the cars outright.

As to when did the Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe (ATSF) retired the car, I simply am not sure.

One photograph, posted to ABPR at railfan.net, shows the car before the Santa Fe modernized it but there is no date included with it. Please see the following link.

http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?july09/07-07-09/at+sf20p.jpg

If I remember correctly, Pullman withdrew from passenger car operations around 1967.