What about this green Frisco covered hopper? Any color pix around? In the early 60s when I was living in Tampa, Florida, the Frisco tried to obtain the Central of Georgia. The ICC gave their blessing to the Southern instead. The Southern had a lot of power in the South (and in Washington DC). Ed Bunch, Frisco off-line traffic agent in Tampa at the time thought it would have been great if the Frisco could add the CG to its camp. Alas, it didn´t come to pass. A pity! It is still hard to accept the BN´s erasing the Frisco off the map and pulling in the flag. BNSF is another blunder in my book. I would like to see what John W. Barriger III (the "savior of the Katy") had proposed for his nationwide merger plan of the railroads when he was with the RFC in the 1930s and how the Frisco would have fit into his plan. Anyone know? Joe Toth
I recall seeing a few of them sitting off to the side at Lindenwood, looking new, and huge, in late 1980/early 1981. My reaction was "yuk"! Ken
Joe, regarding the hoppers in question, while off topic, you can read here: http://www.frisco.org/vb/showthread.php?3806-Guess-what-I-saw-in-Minot-ND-this-morning!! http://www.frisco.org/vb/showthread.php?4235-SL-SF-86532
Thanks for the pics of the green SL-SF covered hoppers. I second Ken´s YUK! I won´t dare speculate what the green Frisco was saying to the BN that was coupled next to him in one of the pics though. Would a black and white Frisco coonskin herald have improved the looks? Like Katy green, it was hard to digest. Joe Toth
Well, I didn't see it coming, but I was pretty young at the time. The first indicator of anything happening was seeing a southbound freight train at the Chaffee depot. On the handrails of the lead unit, there was a large, rectangular sign that had the Coonskin and the "BN" logo (is there a catchy name for it?) side by side, with the words "TOGETHER AT LAST!" below the logos. My Dad tried to explain what was happening, but it went over my head. Best Regards,
I really do not remember when I first heard about the merger, but I know it was well before the actual destruction. I have a few pictures of when they ran the BN and Frisco geometry cars together. We were told they wanted to know what the track was like before they merged. It was actually exciting, the thought of so much new territory. Most of the officials said that we were a bridge railroad and would not survive without a merger. Actually the BN part was a great railroad, then came the SF part and things really went to the dogs. Santa Fe had a lot of really great people, but was rotting from the very TOP. Man what a shame. About the too three, was rotten to the core. There all gone now, and who knows the future looks much better Bill Jackson
Interesting........even though in the mid-80s BN was paring down service on the A&A and Arthur Subs, the crews were quite upset when that trackage got sold to the Kiamichi Railroad. The source of their unhappiness was that KRR would be a non-union line, while BN was obviously union territory. Some old heads saw the sale as a union-busting move, and the last stop before abandoning the line. Almost 25 years later, those same folks were proven wrong, even after KRR became part of the RailAmerica family (and before then, saw its operating employees join unions). I can only imagine what the Ft. Smith Sub crews thought when BN spun off that line to the Hannolds. But then again, BN was doing a lot of line sales during that time (Grainbelt, Montana Rail Link, Kiamichi, Arkansas & Missouri) Wonder if anybody here remembers that Santa Fe at one time was seeking out the Frisco.....this would have given Santa Fe their long-coveted access to St. Louis, as well as an avenue into the Southeast via Memphis to Birmingham.
Wow. I am totally impressed with the responses in this thread. I never thought it would have gone like this. I figured one or two responses at most. Thanks guys. Childhood and young adult memories are great. I hope y'all keep it going. I'm so sorry the Frisco is gone, but certainly happy that she's not forgotten.
Hello All, I was just perusing this old thread, and it reminded me of those days. In 1977, I was only in 7th grade, but saved the article from the St. Louis newspaper. I quickly shot off a letter to Martin Pomphrey, who was always great in corresponding to this young Frisco fan. I'll try to dig both of those out to post here. What's funny in hindsight is that the article (and Frisco's position) was that the lines would be 'merged' and no decision had been made as to the name of the 'new' railroad.
That's interesting, Chris. When I was 8, I can remember Mr. Pomphrey giving me and my family a tour of a Frisco locomotive and letting me ring the bell and lay on the horn. On some subconscious level, that's probably why I model SL-SF and not the BN. Best Regards,
Yes, Hard to imagine that nowadays. He would respond to my letters, and even sent me some great items like timetables--and even an unused passenger ticket that had to have come from the 50's. My father had a friend that worked at Lindenwood, and the Frisco allowed me to ride a switcher with him one day. I believe it was an NW-2 in orange/white, but to my amazement, Lindenwood in '77 still had a couple of black/yellow units.
Today I got a box of train papers and calenders and assorted railroad junk. At the bottom of the box I found a timetable size pamplet titled --The Burlington Northern and the Frisco Railway are planning to merge. Here's what it means to you.-- It was published in 1978, I'm not sure which Railroad made it. I've read through it and there was equal material on both roads. One of the things that I noticed was all the lies in the booklet. On one of the pages it says that not a single segment of Frisco track will be abandoned and not a single job will be lost on either road. It also says Frisco's scheduled trains will remain along with all costumers, but they will add more new trains as well, which means more employees. It also talks of building good bonds with all the communities they serve(to me tearing down my local depot would be a bad start). It sounds like the merger was started with good intentions for both roads, but the outcome was much differnet than originally expected.
When the late John W. Barriger III was with the RFC (Reconstruction Finance Corpoartion) in the 1930s he proposed super mergers of the US railroads. I imigine the report is in the library in St.Louis that bears his name. Perhaps a historian on this site can help? I would like to know where the Frisco would have fit in and with what roads. In the early 60s, if memory serves me well, the Frisco made a bid for the Central of Georgia. The ICC gave its bessing to the SOUTHERN instead. About the same time the Santa Fe made a bid for the Frisco and Western Pacific! Had these railroads been tied together the US rail map would have changed dramatically even back then and there is a possibility that a large Santa Fe system would have emerged. No doubt the Santa Fe would have formed a run-through agreement with the Rio Grande from Salt Lake City to Denver. All Santa Fe traffic would then have moved to Pueblo and LaJuanta to points east and vice versa. Looking at the current situation and comparing it to the early 60s, the Santa Fe finally got the Frisco and trackage agreements to operate over the former WP. BNSF probably has few dedicated Frisco fans but John W. Barriger III is probably looking down and thinking that it makes sense in view of non-rail competition and unfair government regulation. The loss of the Frisco and many other favorite Fallen Flags has been a bittersweet pill to swallow as with the loss of lines like the AT&N and QA&P in the Frisco camp, but Railroad Monopoly has been going on ever since the first railroad reached out and took over another carrier. Just look at all the railroads that made up the Frisco. A dramatic loss was when B.F. Yoakum lost the RI as well as the SA&AP to the SP by the stroke of a pen by minutes to boot thus preventing the Frisco's expansion into Southern Texas and possibly Mexico. Pre NAFTA perhaps? Joe Toth
There is an excellent discussion of all this in Merging Lines : American Railroads, 1900-1970 by Richard Saunders. This is an excellent book that is an easy read. It covers railroad mergers, including the Barriger proposals, up to the Penn Central debacle in 1970. Copies are available through Amazon, and can probably still be ordered through most retailers, as it is still in print. GS
Thanks for the info. I will order this one! The book "The Nation Pays Again" about the demise of the Milwaukee Road is a good read as is "When the Railroad Leaves Town." Joe Toth
The BN made out well. They found much of the frisco management was superior to theirs. They turned many thing over to prior Frisco managers. Many of those became more successful rising in the ranks.
This is an eye opening thread that I am surprised I had not read through yet. I feel that I have an entirely different perspective on this era than most due to my age (BNSF is slightly older than I am). If the CP-KCS merger goes through, that will be the first "mega-merger" that I'm old enough to remember. I have some thoughts/questions that are rolling around in my head that I would like to see if anyone has insight on. As discussed, the set up of the Frisco made it appealing to many other roads besides BN, such as the Santa Fe. I'm surprised that the Santa Fe didn't pursue the Frisco harder in this era considering the connections it would have given them in addition to the run-through connection to the Southeast it already had established, and also considering the history the two had between the 1890's and 1930's. Something I have a hard time wrapping my head around is the fact that prior to 1980, the Frisco had run-through agreements with the UP to funnel traffic from the Pacific Northwest to the Southeast and the BN had similar arrangements with MoPac, but the two ended up flip-flopping those arrangements with their respective mergers. As our thread on run-throughs continues to grow, I'm still surprised that the BN didn't seem to initiate any run-through service in 79 or 80 after the merger was considered a done deal. Final though, I don't understand why the BN was so quick to erase the image of the Frisco. I get that they essentially bought out the company, but if it was the ex-Frisco brass taking over, why did they go ahead with wiping out the image of the company they all had such strong ties to?
