Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc. - updated

Hopefully, I've sucessfully uploaded a Frisco business car list that will (help) clairfy the confusion that is always associated with the biz car names, numbers and details. This list is by no means the final word--any additions and/or corrections are appreciated.

Tom

 

Re: Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc.

Excellent work Tom! Now the challenge will be to try to trace the whereabouts/disposition of the cars after they were sold by the SLSF.

 

Re: Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc.

Tom,

Was Oklahoma rebuilt a second (or re-modeled) in 1947?

I ask because the 1947 general arangement diagram that Karl posted in this thread:
http://www.frisco.org/shipit/index.php?threads/frisco-museum-business-car-series.12936/

Shows Oklahoma,Missouri,Tennesee,Alabama, and Springfield as being identical cars at the time the drawing was created.

Oklahoma would have been of similar original construction, starting as a 1912 ACF built buffet-coach instead of a coach like the other cars.

Your list shows St. Louis was also rebuilt from the same stock, but it differs from the cars above, as it has all welded sides.

Paul

 

Re: Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc.

Paul--"Oklahoma" is on Karl's diagram, but it has a different origin than the cars converted from diners: Tennesse, Missouri, Springfield, Alabama and Saint Louis. It had been ex buffet-coach 1702, but was Pullman built in 1912. It was remodeled to a business car in 1924 and given #1924. The five cars remodeled from diners must have been built in the same arrangement as "Oklahoma" (I guess??).
"Saint Louis" did indeed have welded sides and was converted from a "soldier diner" (646) and named at the time (January 1951).

Tom

 

Re: Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc.

Hi Tom,

The only photos I've ever seen of Saint Louis, which was #2 after 1963 (then to BNA9 Mermec River, and now BNSF James J. Hill), show the car with welded sides, so I'm not questioning the welded sides vs riveted sides. The roof line of Saint Louis also differs from the other cars, so there were some different thoughts going on when it was converted than when the others were converted.

I'd still like to find out if Oklahoma was rebuilt after WWII. I think we would need some photos if it prior to the diagram Karl posted to find out for certain.

Paul

 

Re: Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc.

I stand corrected re: Saint Louis' welded sides. In a Frisco Museum "All Aboard" newsletter there are a couple of photos of "Saint Louis" dated 8-21-51 showing the car with obviously welded sides. However the article does state that the car was rebuilt from "soldier diner" #646 and named "Saint Louis" at the time.
Nothing in my records show "Oklahoma" as ever being rebuilt, however I have what seems to be a company "roll-out" photo of #6 (before it was named Oklahoma) dated 8-31-50 and the car looks spit-shined as if freshly repainted or remodeled. I'll post that picture (with others) in a day or two.

Tom

 

Re: Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc.

Here are some photos of the car that became the "San Francisco."

As #1920 (left)--This looks like a company roll-out photo after a shopping or paint job. Undated (at Springfield West Shops), but taken sometime before the 1947 renumbering.

As #1 (center)--Arthur B. Johnson photo, Springfield depot, October 4, 1947.

As "San Francisco" (right)--Company photo, Springfield West Shops--Looks to be after 1956 remodeling w/new turtle-back roof.

More photos later, Tom

 

Re: Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc.

Here are some photos of business car #2, later named "Tennessee." (The dates on these photos raise many more questions than answers??)

--The photo in front of Springfield West Shops building (center) and the two end car views (left & second from left) are date stamped 3-3-48 and are probably roll-out shots when the rebuilding from diner #645 was completed. The 3-3-48 date is probably correct--Even though Frisco Museum's "All Aboard" news letter and the Frisco Passenger Car Historical Record cite March 1949 as the completion date?? I used March 1949 in my notes??
The other view (right, at the Springfield depot) is by Arthur B. Johnson dated 10-4-47, however I'm sure that date is incorrect (since it was either 1948 or '49 was when the car was built). The depot view has two pinstripes along the bottom of the car--the other photos only have one stripe. I don't have any photos of this car as "Tennessee."

Tom

 

Re: Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc.

Here are pictures of business car #3 which was later named "Missouri" (June 1954) then renumbered to #1 (January 1963).

--The b/w photo is probably ca. 1950 after it was rebuilt from diner#644.
--Color photo at Springfield shops/yard probably in the 1970's after the truly awful mandarin and white was applied.
--I don't have any photos of this car as "Missouri," however there is a great 1956 color photo of "Missouri" in Molo's "Frisco-Katy Color Guide" on page four. Same photo in Clemons' and Key's "Birmingham Rails," page 113.

Tom

 

Re: Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc.

Tom:

I have gone through Randall's "Private Passenger Car Annual, Vol. 1, 1980" and found the following:

1. Claude L. Steppe, Athens, Ohio: TWO STEPPE -- Business Car: ex SLSF business car; ND (no data)

2. Smoky Hill Railway & Historical Society, Shawnee Mission, Kansas: 3 - OKLAHOMA -- Business Car; ex Erman Corp. 3, ex SLSF 3, ex OKLAHOMA, ex 6; rebuilt from coach buffet lounge in 1924; built by PCW 1912

Both of these entries square with your information, the "Two Steppe" having been the SLSF "Arkansas". The book also lists the 200 at the Museum of Transportation.

Similarly, Randall's "Railway Passenger Car Annual, Vol. 5, 1980-81" lists, in addition to SLSF still owning "Missouri" and "Saint Louis":

1. Ontario Northland: 203 - Moosonee: ex SLSF 2 - TENNESSEE, modernized 1949, ACF 1912.

Elsewhere in that book is shown that the Algoma Central acquired two cars (not SLSF) from Waldo E. Bigbee, who is shown in your list as having been the purchaser of the "Tennessee", and while this proves nothing in itself, it at least shows that Bigbee was selling cars in Canada so it would certainly be possible that he had sold the "Tennessee" to Ontario Northland.

A significant player in all this appears to have been the Texas Tank Car Works in San Angelo, Texas. A contributor on Frisco@Yahoogroups claims they owned at least three SLSF business cars around 1982 that they had bought either directly from SLSF or from other private owners. The only car you list as them having bought directly was the "Florida". This is the person who actually bought the car that is now the WC/IC "Superior". He bought it from Texas Tank Car, though does not say when, and thinks it is the former "Tennessee". So did Ontario Northland sell "Tennessee" to Texas Tank Car? Did Smoky Hill sell "Oklahoma" to Texas Tank Car? Did the Mid-South buy their car from Texas Tank Car?

Many questions left to be answered! I think we're getting there though.

Gordon

 

Re: Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc.

Whoops, on rereading the post on the other site I see that the person that bought the "Superior" for WC bought it from a private individual (the car was named "Montana" then) but that it earlier was owned by Texas Tank Car Works.

We need to know more about Texas Tank Car Works!

Gordon

 

Re: Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc.

Some photos of business car #1100--later #8--still later "Arkansas" (This car was also #4 for a short time between May '47 and June '48)

as #1100--Looks to be a company photo--photographer, date, location unknown.

as #8--Arthur B. Johnson photo; April 17, 1948; Springfield depot.

as "Arkansas"--Jerry Moore photo (Pat Coughlin collection); April, 1957; Tulsa.

Tom

 

Re: Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc.

Here's ANOTHER car #4--Different from the #4 that became the "Arkansas." THIS #4 was ex #100, ex #2, and later became #14 and still later became the "Texas." Arthur B. Johnson photo; at the Springfield depot April 17, 1948.

Tom

 

Re: Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc.

Four photos of the business car that was eventually named "Kansas."

as #2500 (left)--Looks like a company photo--the number "2500" barely visible above door. Other details unkown.
as #5--Arthur B. Johnson photo; Springfield depot September 1947.
as #7--Springfield depot, other details unknown.
as "Kansas"--Jerry Moore photo (Pat Coughlin collection); Tulsa Union Depot; November 1957.

 

Re: Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc.

Re: Business car awnings--I've been squinting at the color photo of "Missouri" in the Birmingham Rails book and my "guess" would something close to Pullman green or maybe an "olive" color?? Hard to tell??

Tom

 

Re: Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc.

Two photos of car #6 that became "Oklahoma."

as #6--Frisco company photo, August 31, 1950.

as "Oklahoma"--Arthur Johnson photo, Springfield depot, September 27, 1959.

 

Re: Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc.

Here are some more of my business car photos:

Left: "Springfield" (ex #2, ex #4, later #3)--Jerry Moore photo (Pat Coughlin collection); Tulsa Union Depot ca. 1957.

Center: #5 (later "Alabama")--Tom Galbraith photo, Springfield depot December, 1953.

Right: #9 (ex #2200, ex #7, later "Mississippi")--Arthur Johnson photo, Springfield depot, April 17, 1948.

In searching business car info, I found there were quite a few photos posted in the frisco.org "Business Car section before I joined last August--FYI.

Tom

 

Re: Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc.

I appreciate all the chatter here about the business cars, it is helpful in a number of ways and I am indebted to you all, but especially so to Tom. But for me there still is a question or two...

If the car on the WC/SSAM, 100 Superior, is the Tennessee car (which would mean it is the car that Ontario Northland had), does anyone have any idea which one became Midsouth Prospector, to KCS 1887 Arthur E. Stillwell, to 1887 Laredo, and now IAIS Hawkeye??? I still need to nail down the history of these two cars for the Passenger Car Photo Index, and all help is greatly appreciated!!!

 

Re: Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc.

Oh yeah, I forgot "Saint Louis"--probably the neatest Frisco business car of them all! I think there's also a photo of this car posted earlier in the "Business Car" section in Pullman green and pin stripes, but without the name and just the 2's on the sides. I think this car would be the easiest to model since it's a smooth-side. "Saint Louis" (or #2), depending on paint scheme, would be a suitable model of any Frisco era from 1951 to 1980.

as "Saint Louis"--Photo by Gordon Mott (or Louis Marre), Fort Smith, 8-20-61.

as #2--Details unknown.

Tom