Paint Colors - Zephyr Blue And White Paint Livery Or Scheme - Heavyweight Cars - Firefly And Meteor

Discussion in 'Heavyweight Cars' started by gbmott, Oct 19, 2008.

  1. gbmott

    gbmott Member

    I want to try to confirm an assumption that I have always held.

    That being that there were never heavyweight Pullmans painted in the Zephyr blue and white paint scheme that was worn by the Meteor before the streamlined train was delivered.

    I have never seen a photograph of one, and I find no indication in the Pullman records of such. Thinking about it and knowing how many other types of cars were so painted, plus the fact that the Frisco quickly painted heavyweight Pullmans red and silver, it seems somewhat odd that they did not.

    Anyone have any information to the contrary?

    Gordon
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 9, 2024
  2. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    I would like to revisit this subject.

    A while back I believe Gordon Mott was wondering if there were ever enough blue and white passenger cars at any one time to have a whole matched train consist.

    I have been running a very informal "survey" from photographs. Any time I saw photographs of a Frisco train with blue and white cars, I tried to see how many were in the train. I never ran across a train with more than four blue and white cars. And that was in a train of nine cars.

    Summing up, there were blue and white cars in many passenger train photographs, from one to four, but never as many as half were blue and white. One possible exception in Arthur Dubin's book More Classic Trains there is a photograph of the Meteor sitting in the depot with what seems to be a complete blue and white consist.

    It is spoiled only by an express boxcar coupled behind the engine. Also no one seems to believe that any Pullmans were ever painted in that scheme.

    For your information, my "survey" did not include the Firefly and its dedicated cars.

    Tom
     
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  3. renapper (Richard Napper RIP 3/8/2013)

    renapper (Richard Napper RIP 3/8/2013) Passed away March 8, 2013

    I do not know if there was ever a complete blue and white passenger consist.

    But, there are approximately 100 cars that were painted blue and white listed in a booklet from the former Frisco Railroad Museum.

    If you do not have the book, E-mail me at rennapper@centurylink.net and I will E-mail it to you.

    Richard
     
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  4. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    Thanks,

    I have it already.

    I think there is also a similar version in the scanned former Frisco Museum All Aboard magazines.

    Tom
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 7, 2024
  5. gbmott

    gbmott Member

    I think it is pretty certain that there were never any Pullmans painted in blur and white which is somewhat curious given the Frisco's effort to paint as many other cars in blue and white as they did, and to paint locomotives 4-8-4 SLSF 4500-02 to match.

    The Pullman Company was certainly not adverse to painting their cars into a specific railroad scheme, though they charged the railroad for doing it. Pullmans were specifically assigned, and the assignments stayed fairly stable, so it was not a situation where a railroad would have a car painted in their scheme and then never see it again.

    It is too bad, a solid blue and white painted Meteor behind a 4-8-4 4500 would have been a pretty impressive sight.

    I guess it will be up to someone to do it in HO-scale if we are ever to see such.

    Gordon
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 7, 2024
  6. treefrog

    treefrog Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Did this good looking paint scheme last into early diesel period use?

    Many thanks,

    Rick
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 7, 2024
  7. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    There were a few cars co-existing into the diesel era.

    Looks like 1955 was when the last blue and white car was repainted to Pullman green. I guess it was possible that in the 1948-1955 period, there could have been a train "someplace on the Frisco" that had Pullman green, blue and white and red and silver cars all in one train.

    I think we have a photograph posted somewhere here on the forum where a Texas Special E7A (EA7) engine is pulling just such a train.

    Tom
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 7, 2024
  8. treefrog

    treefrog Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Thanks Tom!

    That was my guess but I like hearing it from someone besides myself!

    Again many Thanks.

    Ricky
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 7, 2024
  9. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    I finally found the thread where the photograph of the Texas Special engine pulling some blue and white headend cars was posted.

    It was likely a break in run of the streamline engines on the "Will Rogers". So a modeler could run a Texas Special engine pulling the blue and white cars and be prototypically correct.

    Or, he could run them anyway he would like since it is model railroading after all.

    http://www.frisco.org/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=10476&d=1268999103

    Tom
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 7, 2024
  10. gbmott

    gbmott Member

    It certainly appears that the white marker light is lit, indicating this is operating as an extra which makes the photograph even more interesting.

    Gordon
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 7, 2024
  11. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    Hi Gordon,
    I think you spotted those extra lights when that photograph was first posted.

    I am having trouble finding older posts.

    What was your thought about the train displaying the lights?

    There were a lot of photographs in the days of the Texas Special and Meteor engines at Tulsa, OK.

    The cars appear to be baggage cars, but an extra like a troop movement could have baggage cars.

    Thought to be on the Will Rogers, do you think this was one of those trains or something else?

    Also, would they want to use newly arrived engines on an extra like a troop or football special?
     
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  12. slsfrr (Jerome Lutzenberger RIP 9/1/2018)

    slsfrr (Jerome Lutzenberger RIP 9/1/2018) Engineer Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 7, 2024
  13. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    I think it might have been.

    All the other photographs, mostly at Tulsa, OK, of the Meteor and Texas Special engines on the non-streamliner break-in runs were on the Will Rogers in Oklahoma.

    The Will Rogers was a night train until 1956, so any daylight pictures would probably been someplace in Oklahoma.

    I do not remember where it came from, internet?

    Or posted here earlier, not sure?

    Tom
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 7, 2024
  14. slsfrr (Jerome Lutzenberger RIP 9/1/2018)

    slsfrr (Jerome Lutzenberger RIP 9/1/2018) Engineer Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Tom,

    Okay thanks.

    It looks like the west end of East Yard at Oklahoma City, OK.

    The locomotives and first car or two are coming off the North Canadian River bridge entering the yard. The track closest to the photographer is the main line. The hostler would get the train at Oklahoma City Union Station depot and take it to the yard where there was a wash rack. They would wash the train and then take it back to Union Station depot.

    This might have been mentioned before, if not new information.

    Jerome
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 7, 2024
  15. DanHyde

    DanHyde Member

    As an FYI, Don talked about the blue color for the Firefly being the Chesapeake and Ohio (C&O) enchantment blue, a very close match.

    I found a resource for 8 ounce spay enamel of this color. It is the same as the Texas Special red I found at the hobby shop. It is manufactured by Charles C. Wood and Company. These are paints to match the old Ives, American Flyer, Lionel, and other Toy train makers of the past.

    It retails for $9.00 a can. That really helps on my large scale Firefly project! If you type "Charles C. Wood paint" in your browser, it should guide you there.

    Dan

    Edit: The spray cans are 16 ounces, not 8 ounces as I first posted. I am waiting confirmation from the manufacturer that the C&O blue is the "enchantment" blue.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 7, 2024
  16. jmlaboda

    jmlaboda Member

    Makes me wonder what the Frisco would have looked like if they had retained these colors instead of going with the red... not as bright but would bet it would have made for some beautiful equipment.
     
  17. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    The Frisco was worried about using blue on their new streamlined, lightweight passenger equipment and on the E units.

    Two other major railroads headquartered here in St Louis, the Missouri Pacific (MP) and the Wabash, both bigger passenger carriers than the Frisco, already had very nice lightweight passenger fleets using blue as one of the major colors.

    The Frisco quickly ruled blue out.

    Ken
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 7, 2024
  18. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    Baltimore and Ohio (B&O) was also an occupant of the St. Louis Union Station with blue and gray passenger cars.

    Tom G.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 7, 2024
  19. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Tom,

    Thanks!

    Yes, indeed, the Baltimore and Ohio (B&O) used blue on their passenger cars and diesels. I am amazed I forgot about them! A friend's father from when I was a kid in grade school was the St. Louis station manager for the B&O here.

    We had a class trip in the 5th grade I think up to Springfield, IL on the Gulf, Mobile and Ohio (GM&O) to spend a day with all the Abraham Lincoln things there in the Illinois capitol. A few hours before we were supposed to depart on the GM&O in the morning, his dad drove us down to St. Louis Union Station depot.

    He arranged for us to be served breakfast in the B&O diner on a B&O train that had come in a few hours before. It was great, we received royal service!

    Later, on the GM&O on the way up, we were given a box lunch. What a letdown from the service we received earlier!

    That day is a very fond memory.

    Ken
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 7, 2024
  20. mktjames

    mktjames Member

    I have seen two different paint schemes for the Firefly three car set in black and white photographs.

    What color were they blue and white, blue and gray or blue and silver?

    Thanks,

    mktjames
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 7, 2024

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