I am fast approaching making a final decision on what type of operating scenario I am going to use on my railroad and thought I would gather some thoughts/opinions from those of you on this forum. Of course there are several choices from car cards and waybills like Micro-Mark offers to computer programs like JMRI is offering. My railroad is the short section of the Wichita Sub between Neodesha, Fredonia, and slightly beyond set in the fall of 1980. There is a classification yard in Neodesha, a once a day train to Wichita, and a daily local from Neodesha to Fredonia with plenty of switching in Fredonia. I have determined that the railroad will support 2 crews. Any and all feedback is welcome and appreciated.
Bob, for a two crew operation I would suggest just using written switch lists (based on actual SLSF paperwork, of course.) That lets you mess around without having to update the computer. Slight step up from that is having car cards/waybills at the agent's desk and the clerk makes out switch lists. This is how Chuck Hitchcock operates and would essentially add a third job to your session. I'm tempted to add that since I still have just foamboard boxes on the fascia around the layout. I've got waybills and car cards in Excell, which is how most of our group has produced their paperwork, with individual variations.
Bob: I t has been a couple of years since I have used JMRI. The bugs in it may have been fixed by now. I had trouble using it. It would lose track of where the locomotives were located and occasionaly a car or two. Once in awhile it would totally lose an entire train. Presently I am using car cards that I have printed myself. I also occasionally play around with switch lists. I haven't decided what I like best but for now I am using car cards. Whatever you decide to use just have fun.
Maybe some long time railroader can correct me, but it seems that "back when", a railroad sales type would call the on-line customers to see what 1) what cars they needed, and 2) what cars are needed to be picked up. That information went to a yard clerk who then collate the data. That data was used to make up the empty string of cars plus any through cars for that particular train run. Crews would then deliver/pick up cars from the switch list. Station agents would alert train crews if any team track cars were waiting to be picked up. In this scenario, one would just need car cards and some method of selecting what customers need service during the operating session. If one just has a staging yard, then the trains would be pre-selected. If a fiddle yard was used at both ends, then fiddle yard operators would pull cars to make up the train at the beginning of the operating session.
Bob, your dilemma seems to echo mine. Since I'm looking at a rather small operation with limited rolling stock, I'm leaning towards keeping it to smaller-than-prototype waybills and switch lists. Regarding the waybills, rather than use the car envelopes and car cards, I like what I read from Model Railroad Planning a few years back, when I read how John King used actual waybills for each car and its lading. However, the article didn't address handling of MTYs, which is a facet of operation that has always interested me. I may go with car cards/waybills. Or, I may try both. First, though, I need to finish my trackwork/wiring for the AT&SF interchange at Olathe, and finish the scenery and fascia. I think that Keith R. has posted some sample "make your own" car cards and waybill forms somewhere around these parts? Best Regards,
Chris, what I am leaning towards is a double-sided car card for each car. One side for it being empty (and it's mty weight and where it needs to be returned) with the other side being loaded and it's loaded weight. The each industry has a sleeve for the car card. I'm thinking having a color (the sleeve itself or a dot) for each town. The "yard" operator matches the car to the industry need, slip the car card into the industry sleeve, make up the train per town setouts and hand everything to the road crew. Any through cars would be placed in a "through line" sleeve to take it from one yard to the other yard. I haven't yet figured out that once cars that have been loaded or unloaded at an industry, how to designate which direction they need to go when picked up.
Bob, that's an interesting concept that you propose. Rather than car cards with pockets that carry waybills, you would have industry waybills with pockets that hold car cards. In a way, that is more prototypical since the waybill identified what car was carrying the merchandise or materials. 1) One would put the car card in the industry waybill or an empty car request for that industry and the car would be moved to the industry. The waybill or empty request with car card would be placed in a Setout box at the industry. 2) To simulate an emptied car, the car card would be pulled from the industry waybill and placed in a Pull box at the industry. A car card with no waybill would be returned to its home agent (staging). 3) Any car that was still in an industry waybill pocket for that industry would be left at the industry. 4) To simulate a car was loaded and to be pulled, one would place the car card in a different industry waybill, which would be placed in the Pull pocket. That car would then travel to another industry or to staging. It would be necessary to have a file system for each industry to keep track of waybills and empty requests (where appropriate) for that industry and the waybill should reflect what type of car is needed. The file for the industry would also have to have waybills for loads (if appropriate) and they would have to be marked in some way that you could identify that the waybill is for traffic from that industry. One might be able to utilize one or more of the transparent plastic organizer boxes to create said file system. The lid could be labeled to reflect what industries the organizer contained. I think you have hit upon a very interesting and insightful concept! I will work on developing some of the paperwork to support the scheme.
Howdy, The most realistic operating software I have found is ProTrak. I've tried all the others on a home layout and club, but none compared favorably with ProTrak. You could run a real railroad with it, in my humble opinion. Best, mike
Okay, Bob, Chris, et al, here are the modified Car Cards and Waybill Cards for Bob's proposed operating scheme. The Waybill Cards (Loads and Empties) could be printed on 120lb white card stock, then cut out, folded and glued to make pockets for the Car Cards. The Car Cards could be printed on 120lb Buff card stock and then cut out. The Waybill cards would have an Industry, City and Type of Load indicated. Empty Car Request cards are for Empty cars to be delivered to an industry. The Car Cards would have the Reporting Marks, Car Type and routing for an empty car.
These two other threads provide more forms (switchlists) and the other examples of Car Cards and 4 cycle Waybills that can be used for operations: http://www.frisco.org/shipit/index.php?threads/set-up-an-operating-model-railroad.3553/ http://www.frisco.org/shipit/index.php?threads/operating-forms-for-layouts.3615/
Thank you, thank you, thank you. This is pretty much what I was thinking. Operating the High Line, there wasn't a lot of on-line industry-to-industry car forwarding. Could have been some, but not a lot, so everything came in and went out from either end. The trick is to balance the north and south traffic. And quite frankly, I don't care about the names of the off-line customers. That is, knowing the name of the customer where the hopper of feed going to KC eventually winds up. Nor do I care about who shipped the load in from St. Louis. I only care that the car has "arrived" in the yard. Now that said, what does matter is getting that off-road car back to it's owner. And that can determine which direction it is routed. Say, I got an empty SP boxcar. Most likely, it needs to go to SPM and not KC. A Katy car should go to KC and a Pennsy or NYC car could either place to get back "home."
I made a change to the Car Cards 2 file to add a VIA entry to the EMPTY Return To area. This will help operators to determine the direction something should head on the railroad.
Interesting concept, glad Keith was able to some up with a solution. I wonder how large a layout would work with these? A lot of carrying sleeves back to origin to restage? With two or four cycle waybills in car card sleeves, as long as the card and car are together the system is self-healing. I guess the same would be true for this system. I can walk around my layout and cycle 120 or so cars fairly quickly because I'm not looking in a file or consulting a list. I've still not completely figured out how the Omaha guys do their one-cycle waybills without some management tools I haven't seen. Different stokes, as they say. Somebody let us know if you try this.
Steve - my guess is that it probably wouldn't work on a large layout. Really don't know how well it will work on mine, but at least Keith has given me a starting point. And for that, I am very grateful. My layout will be in a 20'x30' building, double decked, with fiddle yards at either end of the railroad, so it will be smaller than what I am used to. I was more interested in developing an operating scheme of industry orders rather than just moving cars around a layout in some pre-ordained manner. And yes, I'll need to find a computer system to aid in industry orders. For example, a grain elevator may get a car or two every other week, while a freight depot may get a couple of cars a day. I can't start building the layout until next spring, but wanted to be thinking about operating schemes while still in the design stage, knowing that some tweaking will be needed down the road.
I have enjoyed learning about JMRI and building operating schemes for my layout. JMRI can be downloaded for free and run on a computer not connected to a layout or decoder programmer. There is a nice tutorial by David Haynes at: http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/10834 The tutorial goes through a few of the schemes mentioned in this thread, including schedules for intervals between pickups /set outs and setting up specific loads for given cars and industries. Other than the investment in time, there is not much expense involved to give it a try, provided you have a computer available (Windows, Mac, or PC). I found it a nice diversion for a few days when I had some time. Admittedly, it has a learning curve (but not too bad) and is not entirely friendly when there is a problem with building a train. Fortunately, the JMRI web site has a mailing list that regularly addresses common problems. If you read the traffic related to operations for a few weeks or past threads, you will likely see things that you encounter. As you have an idea for operations, you can build the various trains, move them through a cycle or two (on the computer), and examine how cars will be distributed and the number of pick ups / set outs for a given train or operation. The thing that I particularly enjoy is that you can set up an operation that is not necessarily part of a regular operating session and build a short local switching operation or some other smaller idea, and use it when you just have a little time available. As JMRI keeps track of the location of various cars and locomotives, you can just jump right in to a larger schedule without having to re-stage, provided that is part of your operating plan. As always, enjoy the journey.... -Bob T.
Bob, for a given industry you would have to consider the number of load or empty spots for a given car type. Double the number for each car type and I think you would have the number of either the Empty Car Requests or Load Waybills you would need for that industry. The key to organization would be a portable box that has a slot for the Load Waybills and/or Empty Car Requests for each industry. Another portable box would have a slot for each basic car type; gondola, flat, covered hopper, open hopper, box, etc. For a small layout, on the order of yours or mine, I think this system would be fine, particularly if you want paperwork that may be a little more prototypical. For large layouts, the shuffling would be perhaps a little more time-consuming when re-staging. I am in the process of running the concept by the seasoned veterans here in KC to get their feedback. The JMRI system is another way of directing car traffic on a layout. Steve Davis, a KCS modeler in the Tulsa, OK area, uses it for his operating sessions. The only drawback is you are completely reliant on the operators to correctly get the cars to where they are supposed to be during a session. On a regular basis you really have to audit the system to correct for misplaced cars.
