Folks - Some of my favorite photos posted here in the past year include the ones that Don Kaiser shared from the Clinton, MO area in the early 50s. Included is this photo of Train #20, with the conductor reaching out to snare the train orders from the hoop. Clinton sub passenger trains as further described in the entire thread. First question: did the Frisco have a particular name for the stand/rack? I've heard both phrases used. More importantly, I noticed just today that there are three arms for hoops. In this case, the top one for the locomotive crew, the bottom for the conductor. Where does the middle "arm" come into play? It seems that orders for a freight crew in a caboose would use the same bottom arm as the passenger train? Best Regards,
I have a couple of old prints I got in Kansas City, while working there as Roadmaster. The print was off the CB&Q. It showed a similar stand and they called it a "Burr Mail Crane". They used it for mail and orders. I know Frisco had company mail that moved by rail, when I started in 70. Possible it may have started as a mail crane. Most that I seen the station agent used to hold the hoop by hand. Bill Jackson
Bill, based on all of the mail crane pictures I have ever seen, I don't believe we are looking at a modified mail crane but a purpose-built device. Chris, I believe the lower hoop would be the right height for diesels other that E and F units. BTW, anyone else notice the MKT/Frisco Interlocker Tower at the left edge of the photo of Whirlaway?
Yep, it was just a thought. It does remind me, that in, I think the 80's, the supervision at the time wanted racks by switches, so that we could put a shovel and switch broom on it for snow. Seems the traincrews were saying that there was nothing available for snow and ice removal. Thus the hog's got them. Well racks were made and stocked. It wasn't long---the shovels and brooms disappeared, nothing left but a rack standing at attention in the snow. Bill Jackson Oh just so you know, they use to put them in the engines, but after use, most were left by the track.
Keith, that would certainly explain the absence of a middle "hoop." I think this would be an interesting detail to model, especially for the transition/diesel era modeler. I'm guessing that the top "hoop" would have been appropriate for most steam power, too, and that the middle "hoop" would have made its appearance simultaneously with the Frisco's first-generation, non-F unit diesels (e.g. GP-7, RS-1, etc.). Bill, I thoroughly enjoy the stories, insight and background from a Frisco hand. Best Regards,
You are right, Tom - they are some dandies. I'm very grateful that Don Kaiser not only had the foresight to take the pictures, but also was willing to share them here where they are accessible to all. Best Regards,
Okay, here's a question from "diesel age" modeler. Would the engineer on a second steam locomotive get orders? A helper on the rear would be working on a specific stretch, but the second unit would be going to next division point. Would be pretty hard to pass information back and forth about meets or whatever. I can see the need for multiple hoops for that.
Steve, I believe this would be the case: On a regularly scheduled train, the helper would be part of the train until they separate. At that point, the helper would have to be in the clear and await orders that would allow him to return light as an Extra. Assuming that the train is an Extra, the Conductor & Engineer of the train would have orders that would allow them to run from point to point as specified in the orders. The helper Engineer would run with the train until they separate. At that point, the helper would have to be in the clear and await orders that would allow him to return light as an Extra.
Okay, so no need in most helper situations to give the helper orders on the fly. What about a second unit up front, doubleheading for the whole run? Would that not have happened between Rolla and Springfield in the pre-CTC days?
The engineer on the trailing unit would receive copies of the same clearance or clearance and orders as the head end just to keep everyone informed. A Clearance is a permission to take the rails, orders dictate under what conditions. Orders are addressed to Conductors and Engineers of engines and can create deviations in normal operation or can create Extra trains that do not appear on the schedule. Clearances are addressed to trains. A regularly scheduled train would normally receive a Clearance only, unless circumstances required deviation from normal operating (schedule revision, slow orders, multiple section trains, etc), in which case a regularly scheduled train may have orders directed to its Conductor(s) and Engineer(s). Extras are created by orders, and a Clearance for the Extra identifies under what orders the Extra can take the rails. A second locomotive at the head end (consist) would fall within the clearance (regular train) or orders and clearance (extra), same in diesel applications.
Rules 204, 204(a) and 206 (Mar 1, 1946 Book of Rules) would be applicable to the discussion here. Although Rule 204 does not explicitly specify that helper crews are to receive train orders. The notion that train orders are to be addressed to those who are to execute them, and the fact that the train orders are to be shared AND read by the engineer, fireman, conductor, and by at least one brakeman certainly implies that this would include a helper crew.
All, On passenger routes, it is common to have 3 position hoop holders. These were stacked for the head end (engineer, fireman, head end brakeman), the conductor and rear end flagman (brakeman). On passenger trains, the crew is often spread out. This is unlike a freight train with all of the rear end crew on the caboose. Thus the need for 3 hoop positions. If the orders are for a freight train only (no helper(s)) 2 positions are used, even if there are 3 positions on the stand. When approaching a station, the crew watches for signals. When seen, the engineer answers the signal with 2 whistles, which lets the agent know they were seen and gives a "heads up" alert to the crew. The head end snags their orders, the conductor (often positioned mid train) snags his orders and the rear end flagman snags his orders. This facilitates communication if rear end protection is required. If needed, the flagman can provide immediate protection as required by the rules. This procedure relives the conductor from the need to immediately pass the order to the rear and vice versa. Otherwise, in either case they could be distracted in the process by addressing paying customer's needs, thus possibly delaying communicating the instruction in the order. This is a more plausible explanation at this station location. The typical tonnage, train length, grade profile and time frame indicated on this subdivision would seldom warrant the use of helpers. Hope this helps. Thanks! Mark
Thanks to all for the input, insight, thoughts, etc. This is the type of operational stuff that I thoroughly enjoy absorbing. Best Regards,
