The Leaky Roof (KCC&S) and Olathe

Discussion in 'Kansas City Subdivision' started by klrwhizkid, Oct 28, 2014.


    SAFN SAAP Member

    Hey Karl,

    I went back and looked at the photo, and the tender says "186" with the cab marking K~C C & S. Maybe the picture is playing tricks on me because the "1" is not clearly as pronounced as the "86". It is the same photo that is in the PDF posted in the beginning of the thread. There would be no issue for me to have the loco and caboose decals made, since all the lettering is available through the box car presently in production. I have no problem doing a locomotive/caboose set. I would need help in getting loco numbers so that there could be more than one.

  2. Oldguy

    Oldguy Member Supporter

    I could use a couple of boxcar decal sets and perhaps for the boxcars as well. I can justify an aging KCC&S boxcar(s) sitting somewhere.
  3. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Supporter

    Manny, if this is the photo that you mean, then the locomotive is KCCS number 86, one of twelve Manchester-built 4-4-0's. I also have two diagrams that show that during June 1916, the Frisco sold to its subsidiary road 4 locomotives, i.e., 407, 408, 2702, and 2706. The 400's were Baldwin ten-wheelers, which were built for the "original" Frisco during 1879. The 2700's were 2-8-0's, which also built built for the Frisco during 1881. One can only speculate if these four locomotives received KCCS lettering. We must also speculate about the reason that these locomotive went to the Leaky Roof. Did the Frisco unload these locomotives on the KCCS in order to improve the Frisco's bottom line? Or did the Frisco, sell the locomotives as part of some sort of corporate largess to its subsidiary road?

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 22, 2014
  4. Here's a scanned page from a 1903 Frisco equipment roster with information about the K-CC&S's 4-4-0s. They were originally numbered 201-212, and had been renumbered 79-90 by the time this roster was compiled.

    Manny, if there's any doubt in your mind about the proper number for the locomotive shown in front of the White Swan flour mill, look at the number on the side of the sand dome. It's 86, no doubt about it.

    I recently acquired a closeup photograph of the engineer's side of K-CC&S #80 which supplies a bit more information about engine lettering. I addition to the K.-C. C. & S. lettering on the lower part of the cab (with hyphen and periods), there is a small "T.12" centered on the lowest board of the cab side. I presume this indicates the tonnage rating. I do not yet know the date of the photograph.

    In addition to the four secondhand locomotives Karl mentions, the KCC&S also acquired a third ex-Frisco tenwheeler at about the same time. This was ex-Frisco 403, one of the same class of 1879 Baldwins as 407 and 408. This information comes from ICC records. I've only seen a few photos that *might* represent these tenwheelers in service on the KCC&S, and none was clear enough to distinguish the engine lettering, so I can't answer Karl's question about whether they were ever relettered.

    Attached Files:

  5. Jim James

    Jim James Staff Member Staff Member

    Man, that 4-4-0 #86 certainly is a beautiful locomotive.

    SAFN SAAP Member

    Thanks guys. The photo I have is not as clear as that one is. Thanks for posting it and all the other information. Helps me out quite a bit. I'm working on K~C C&S artwork right now. I'm going to do a locomotive and caboose set to go along with the boxcar set.

  7. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Supporter

    Absolutely, T.12 reflects the Tonnage Class of the locomotive.

    George Hancock, who was the General Superintendent of Motive Power, devised a locomotive classification system, which was implemented on the coonskin number plate. Taken from a Frisco 1908 Roster book, Hancock first divided locomotives according to Whytes classification.

    Four-wheeled switcher: S.4

    Six-wheeled Switcher: S.6

    Mogul: M.

    Consolidation: C.

    Eight-Wheeled: A.

    Ten-Wheeled: T.

    Pacific: P.

    The seven groups were further modified with cylinder diameter, driver center diameter (not driver diameter) and tractive effort.
    For example, one of the 506-515 class, Pittsburg Moguls, by Hancock’s reckoning would be: 506, 19-M-50-22, and one the 801-816 class Dickson 2-8-0’s would be 801, 21-C-50-34.
    I operated under the notion that not only was this nomenclature placed on the number plate, but it was also executed to a lesser degree with lettering on the cab. That is, the Frisco placed the Wheel Arrangement code followed by the Tonnage Class value, e.g., the 506 would have the lettering M.22 and the 801 would have the lettering C.24. This notion was incorrect. The sub-lettering did not include the Wheel Arrangement alpha character, but instead the Frisco placed the letter T, which was followed by the Tonnage Class value. So for our two example locomotives, the lettering would be T22 and T24, respectively.

    Attached is a photograph from the Frisco Archive that shows the 1259 with the Hancock Coonskin and the Tonnage Class letting applied the cab side. It is difficult to determine when the Hancock plate was discontinued, but it would seem that the Tonnage Class sub-lettering lasted through the mid-twenties, because photos of the 1500’s and 4100’s exist with the Tonnage Class lettering applied. See Collias; page 38, number 4149, page 50, number 4162; page 154, number 1524; and page158, number 1500. In both cases, the T54 can be seen, although it can’t be read. I believe that the caption on page 158 is in error, when it states that the 1500 has been shorn of its plumage between shopping and repainting. In my opinion, the photograph predates the Doric livery. The first two engines to receive the Greek fretwork were the 182 and 187. The other passenger locomotives followed.

    Don Banwart’s Ft Scott book, page 260, shows a 1015-class engine with the Tonnage Class lettering, and on page 290, the T84 is clearly shown on the cab side of 2001.

    Attached Files:

  8. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Supporter


    The Frisco's flagship, the Meteor, trains 9 and 10 made their inaugural run on St Paddy's day 1902. Just a little over a year later, on March 23, 1903, the Meteor, trains 109 and 110, began service between KC and OKC. The electrically-lit train carried KC Pullmans for Tulsa and Francis. Train 109 and 110 independent of trains 9 and 10, and did not combine consists or run on the same schedule between Afton and OKC. On Dec 16, 1903, number 110 was involved on one of the worst accidents experience by the new Frisco. Train 110 ran though an open switch at south Godfrey, KS. The brakeman of 3rd 172, which was holding the main at Godfrey, failed to protect the switch had been opened for 118 to go around 3rd 172. The northbound Meteor entered the passing track at 50 mph and derailed as it entered the passing track. Eleven people were killed and 80 were injured.

    Circa 1912-1913 the train's number was changed to 111 and 112. Because of changing economic conditions, on June 21, 1931, the Frisco consolidated passenger schedules, and trains 111 and 112 lost the Meteor moniker.
  9. klrwhizkid

    klrwhizkid Administrator Staff Member Administrator Supporter

    The attached photos of the Stanley, KS and Morse, KS depots come to us from the collection of Jeff Needham, one of the local modelers who participated in the 17th Annual Walk in the Weeds.

    The photo of the Morse depot is looking northeast and the photo of the Stanley depot is looking east.

    Attached Files:


    SAFN SAAP Member

    If anyone could help me with this, I would appreciate it. I am having the Locomotive/Caboose decal for the KCC&S made up, and I'd like to do more than just Engine 86 and Hack 5. If anyone who has knowledge of the other twelve 4-4-0 numbers and the hacks, it would be appreciated, so that I can add them to the decal sheet.

    Thanks. Time is important so the quicker you can get it to me the better off it will be.

  11. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Supporter


    The answers to your questions are in post #23 and #24 in this thread. After the Memphis Road - Frisco Merger, the KCCS remained "independent", so one might argue that the locomotives retained their K-CCS lettering until the ICC granted the Frisco full control of the KCCS on October 21, 1924.
  12. There's good information about the locomotives in the posts Karl mentioned. I will add only that there are a couple of photographs showing #79 in Frisco paint, and another that appears to show a KCC&S 4-4-0 in the middle distance with a coonskin numberplate on the front of the boiler. It seems likely that such redecorations were applied after the 1924 merger, as Karl suggests.

    The KCC&S cabooses were numbered 1-8. Based on photographs I've seen, #3, #5, and #8 were identical and very similar to cabooses that were built by the St. Charles Car Company for the KC Memphis & Birmingham. (See image #33 in this digitized catalog: Paint schemes seem to have changed over the years. One early photo shows #8 with a very simple paint scheme that omitted the star.

    At least one of the KCC&S cabooses was different. In the book Polk County Classics, there's a picture of a blind-end KCC&S caboose with a side door and no end doors or end platforms. I don't have the book at hand right now, but I believe the number was 6 or 7.

    ORERs of the time may supply length data for the cabeese, as well as verifying the number range. I don't have them readily at hand, either, unfortunately.

    When I get back home I'll check for more information.

  13. Coonskin

    Coonskin Member

    Tsk, tsk. Much, MUCH too new. Needs a shorter smokebox, big funnel stack, some ornate paint/scroll work, and a tender piled high with wood. :D

    (Only funnin' wit'cha. For a "modern" 4-4-0 it looks pretty nifty.)
  14. As you wish.

    Here's KCC&S #208 -- later to be renumbered #86 -- in her youth, accompanied by caboose #8. Photo comes from a local historical society. The lettering on the tender appears to be a clumsy contemporary retouching job. Perhaps the tender wasn't yet painted, or perhaps it had gilt lettering on black paint, which sometimes doesn't photograph well.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 22, 2015
  15. Re. the discussion between Karl and Roger about the abandonment of the KCC&S's Pleasant Hill branch:

    I recently visited the Harrisonville public library and found the attached passage in a local history book. It states that, after a contentious government hearing about poor service on the Pleasant Hill branch in 1901, the last train operated on the branch in 1904, and the tracks remained in place until 1916 when they were removed by a local contractor. The transcribed text in the attached PDF does not include the footnotes, which are mostly from local newspapers and can be supplied if anyone wishes to pursue it further. I will eventually check to see if the hearing mentioned was published in the annual reports of the Mo. RR & Warehouse Commission.

    Addendum: Found, transcribed and attached another snippet from a local history book, this one quoting a 1909 Raymore newspaper article which describes more legal tussles over the disposition of the KCC&S's Pleasant Hill branch. How long does it take, at minimum, for a tree to reach a trunk diameter of six inches?

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 22, 2015

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