Joint ATSF-SL-SF PTT, Nov 1911

Discussion in 'Public Timetables (PTTs)' started by Karl, Nov 28, 2011.

  1. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Supporter

    This press release announced the establishment of a traffic agreement between the Frisco and Santa Fe to/from the West Coast. The announcement taunts us a bit with the promise of "high-class" passenger service.

    The nature of this passenger service remained a mystery, until Jeff made me aware of this PTT, which was for sale on Ebay.

    On Nov 12, 1911 the Frisco commenced "through" service to/from the West Coast with The California Express, numbers 11 & 12. Connections at Springfield were made to handle Memphis and Birmingham passengers. The train ran "intact" between St Louis and Waynoka. Westbound dining car service was provided between Tulsa and Enid. Otherwise, meal service was provided at meal stops.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 29, 2011
  2. arkrail

    arkrail Member Supporter

    Thanks for posting this most interesting timetable. This was apparently a through service of short duration, if the Pullman history of lines is any indication. Pullman line 3399 was a standard drawing room sleeper between St. Louis and Los Angeles. According to Pullman Company records, this route was inaugurated November 12, 1911 (as indicated in the joint timetable) and completed its last run on August 9, 1913. The tourist car from Memphis was Pullman line 3390.5, inaugurated November 14, 1911 on a "semi-weekly" basis between Memphis and Ferry Point, with last run on April 15, 1912. The train utilized a different route into and out of San Francisco, one way via Oakland, which was 49 miles longer.

    Bill Pollard
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 28, 2011
  3. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Supporter

    Very interesting. Wonder why this route didn't last longer. Spat with the ATSF? Competition from established route from Chicago?

  4. arkrail

    arkrail Member Supporter

    Looking at 1912 schedules for Mopac and Rock Island, the MP schedule from St. Louis to San Francisco was noticeably faster than the Frisco-ATSF routing, but it was also a much higher altitude crossing of the Rockies (D&RG-WP routing) which might have deterred passengers with health issues. The Mopac's St. Louis-Los Angeles schedule was comparable in time to that of the Frisco. I don't have schedules for comparison, but a Wabash-UP routing would also have been possible from St. Louis.

    From Memphis, RI at this time did not offer through service Memphis-Los Angeles, coach passengers changing at Tucumcari and Pullman passengers at El Paso. There was a once-weekly tourist sleeper that did operate Memphis-Los Angeles, and the schedule was very close to that of the Frisco. Mopac also offered Memphis-Los Angeles service with a change of trains at Little Rock.

    With competitor trains overall trip time being similar, nothing really stands out as a reason for the early demise of the Frisco-ATSF service.
  5. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Supporter

    Perhaps the 1913 bankruptcy, soured the the traffic agreement. On another note, the July 1911 Frisco Man, page 9 reports that the Frisco placed orders for 51 steel passenger cars and twenty-eight large Pacific type passenger locomotives. "This equipment is to make up the St Louis - New Orleans and the St Louis Pacific Coast trains."
  6. Sirfoldalot

    Sirfoldalot Supporter Supporter

    Speaking of New Orleans, what is the story on the route labeled 'Frisco Lines' between Memphis down towards new Iberia along the Eastern side of Arkansas and Louisiana? I've not heard this mentioned before.
  7. yardmaster

    yardmaster Administrator Staff Member Administrator Supporter

    Sherrel, that, too, caught my eye. I think in later years this was a MoP line? I'm hoping someone can clear it up.

    Best Regards,
  8. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Supporter

    On March 24, 1912, the Mississippi River broke its levees which flooded low-lying areas of Arkansas, and ultimately the Frisco. The Frisco was tied-up through the Memphis gateway until May 12, 1912. Perhaps this hiatus killed the Memphis car to the West Coast.
  9. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Supporter

    As the item from the Frisco Man implies, not only did the Frisco inaugurate St Louis to California service, it seems that the Frisco entered into an agreement with the MP or a predecessor road to operate passenger service between St Louis and New Orleans. The Frisco Lines label on the line between Memphis and Louisiana is most likely a remnant from a different version of this map that was used to promote the STL - NO service. That is to say, the printer used the same base map for both new trains. I’d wager that someplace there is a PTT similar to this ATSF-Frisco PTT, except that it lists schedules for the new STL – NO train(s).
  10. arkrail

    arkrail Member Supporter

    The water might well have been a factor. Pullman usually noted when a line was shut down due to high water (line 3407, St. Louis-Kennett, was temporarily discontinued April 1-May 19, 1912 account high water.) At times, however, the Frisco's St. Louis-Memphis sleeper lines were detoured over the Illinois Central when the Frisco River Division was flooded. Its possible that this car was detoured for a few trips, then discontinued entirely.

    The Frisco St. Louis-New Orleans service is indeed another historical detail that needs more attention. There may have been a service of a few months duration from St. Louis-Memphis via Frisco, then Memphis-Little Rock-Winnfield, Louisiana and into New Orleans over some convoluted routing. This was coming to fruition about the time the Frisco-Rock Island affiliation fell apart, and I've never seen any convincing proof that service was actually started. If a timetable similar to this Frisco-ATSF timetable exists, I hope that someone will scan and post it here.


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