Business Car SLSF XXXX - Frisco Numbers, Renumbers, Names, Renames, Etc. - Updated

Hopefully, I have successfully uploaded a Frisco business car list that will help clarify the confusion that is always associated with the business car names, numbers and details.

This list is by no means the final word.

Any additions and/or corrections are appreciated.

Tom

 

Excellent work Tom!

Now the challenge will be to try to trace the whereabouts or disposition of the cars after they were sold by the Frisco.

 

Tom,

The 1947 general arrangement diagram that Karl posted shows business cars Oklahoma, Missouri, Tennessee, Alabama, and Springfield as being identical cars at the time the drawing was created.

Oklahoma would have been of similar original construction, starting as a 1912 American Car and Foundry (ACF) built buffet-coach, instead of a coach like the other cars.

Your list shows St. Louis was also rebuilt from the same stock, but it differs from the cars above, as it has all welded sides.

Was business car "Oklahoma" rebuilt a second time or re-modeled in 1947?

Please see this thread.

http://www.frisco.org/shipit/index.php?threads/frisco-museum-business-car-series.12936/

Paul

 

Paul,

Business car "Oklahoma" is on Karl's diagram, but it has a different origin than the cars converted from diners including the Tennessee, Missouri, Springfield, Alabama and Saint Louis.

It had been ex buffet-coach SLSF 1702, but was Pullman built in 1912. It was remodeled to a business car in 1924 and assigned SLSF 1924. The five cars remodeled from diners must have been built in the same arrangement as "Oklahoma", I guess.

Business car "Saint Louis" did indeed have welded sides and was converted from soldier diner SLSF 646 and named at that time in January 1951.

Tom

 

Hi Tom,

The only photographs I have ever seen of business car "Saint Louis", which was SLSF 2 after 1963, show the car with welded sides, so I am not questioning the welded sides verses riveted sides.

The roof line of business car "Saint Louis" also differs from the other cars, so there were some different thoughts going on as to when it was converted than when the others were converted.

Business car SLSF 2 then became BNA9 "Meramec River", and now is BNSF "James J. Hill".

I would still like to find out if business car "Oklahoma" was rebuilt after WWII.

I think we would need some photographs of it prior to the diagram Karl posted to find out for certain.

Paul

 

I stand corrected regarding business car "Saint Louis" with welded sides.

In a former Frisco Museum All Aboard newsletter there are a couple of photographs of "Saint Louis" dated 8/21/1951 showing the car with obviously welded sides.

However, the article does state that the car was rebuilt from soldier diner SLSF 646 and named "Saint Louis" at the time.

Nothing in my records show "Oklahoma" as ever being rebuilt. However, I have what seems to be a company "roll-out" photograph of business Car SLSF 6 before it was named "Oklahoma" dated 8/31/1950 and the car looks spit-shined as if freshly repainted or remodeled.

I will post that photograph with others in a day or two.

Tom

 

Here are some photographs of the car that became the "San Francisco".

Photograph 1 as business car SLF 1920. At the Springfield West Shops, Springfield, MO. This looks like a company roll-out photograph after a shopping or paint job. Photograph is undated, but taken sometime before the 1947 renumbering.

Photograph 2 as business car SLSF 1 (1st). At the Springfield depot, Springfield, MO. Photograph dated October 4, 1947. Arthur B. Johnson photograph.

Photograph 3 as business car "San Francisco". At the Springfield West Shops, Springfield, MO. Looks to be after 1956 remodeling with a new turtle-back roof. Frisco company photograph.

More photographs later.

Tom

Edit 6/4/2024: Business car SLSF 1 (1st).

Originally business car Kansas City, Ft. Scott and Memphis (KCFS&M) 502, renumbered SLSF 1920, renumbered MKT 405 during United States Railroad Association (USRA) control, renamed "San Francisco".

http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/general/n039334.jpg

Added first (1st) notation noting first time number was used for a Frisco business car and additional photograph link.
MKD

 

Here are some photographs of business car SLSF 2, later named "Tennessee".

The dates on these photographs raise many more questions than answers.

Photographs 1 and 2 of the two ends of the car are probably roll-out shots when the rebuilding was completed from diner car SLSF 645. The photograph views are date stamped 3/3/1948.

Photograph 3 is at the Springfield West Shops, Springfield, MO. The 3/3/1948 date is probably correct. Even though the former Frisco Museum's All Aboard newsletter and the Frisco Passenger Car Historical Record cite the completion date as 1949, I used March 1949 in my notes?

Photograph 4 is at the Springfield depot, Springfield, MO. The depot view has two pinstripes along the bottom of the car. The other photographs only have one stripe. Photograph is by Arthur B. Johnson dated 10/4/47. However, I am sure that date is incorrect since it was either 1948 or 1949 was when the car was built.

I do not have any photographs of this car as "Tennessee".

Tom

 

Here are photographs of business car SLSF 3 which was later named "Missouri" in June 1954, then renumbered to SLSF 1 (2nd) in January 1963.

The black and white photograph is probably circa 1950 after it was rebuilt from diner car SLSF 644.

The color photograph is at the Springfield shops or yard probably in the 1970s after the truly different Mandarin orange and white was applied.

I do not have any photographs of this car as "Missouri".

However, there is a great 1956 color photograph of "Missouri" in Nick Molo's book Frisco-Katy Color Guide To Freight Equipment on page four.

That same photograph is in Clemons' and Key's book Birmingham Rails, page 113.

Tom

Edit 6/4/2024: Added second (2nd) notation noting second time car number was used for a Frisco business car.

 

Tom,

I have gone through Randall's book Private Passenger Car Annual, Vol. 1, 1980 and found the following information.

1. Claude L. Steppe, Athens, Ohio: TWO STEPPE -- Business Car: ex SLSF business car; ND (no data)

2. Smoky Hill Railway & Historical Society, Shawnee Mission, Kansas: 3 - OKLAHOMA -- Business Car; ex Erman Corp. 3, ex SLSF 3, ex OKLAHOMA, ex 6; rebuilt from coach buffet lounge in 1924; built by PCW 1912

Both of these entries square with your information, the "Two Steppe" having been the SLSF "Arkansas". The book also lists the business car SLSF 200 at the National Museum of Transportation in Kirkwood, MO.

Similarly, Randall's book Railway Passenger Car Annual, Vol. 5, 1980-81 lists, in addition to SLSF still owning "Missouri" and "Saint Louis":

1. Ontario Northland: 203 - Moosonee: ex SLSF 2 - TENNESSEE, modernized 1949, ACF 1912.

Elsewhere in that book is shown that the Algoma Central acquired two cars, not SLSF, from Waldo E. Bigbee, who is shown in your list as having been the purchaser of the "Tennessee". While this proves nothing in itself, it at least shows that Bigbee was selling cars in Canada so it would certainly be possible that he had sold the "Tennessee" to Ontario Northland.

A significant player in all this appears to have been the Texas Tank Car Works in San Angelo, Texas. A contributor on Frisco@Yahoogroups claims they owned at least three SLSF business cars around 1982 that they had bought either directly from SLSF or from other private owners.

The only car you list as them having bought directly was the business car "Florida". This is the person who actually bought the car that is now the Wisconsin Central (WC)/Illinois Central (IC) "Superior". He bought it from Texas Tank Car Works (TTCX), though does not say when, and thinks it is the former "Tennessee".

So did Ontario Northland sell "Tennessee" to Texas Tank Car Works?

Did Smoky Hill sell business car "Oklahoma" to Texas Tank Car Works?

Did the Mid-South buy their car from Texas Tank Car Works?

Many questions left to be answered! I think we are getting there though.

Gordon

 

Whoops, on rereading the post on the other site I see that the person that bought the "Superior" for Wisconsin Central (WC) bought it from a private individual.

The car was named "Montana" then, but that it earlier was owned by Texas Tank Car Works.

We need to know more about Texas Tank Car Works!

Gordon

 

Some photographs of business car SLSF 1100, later renumbered SLSF 8, still later renamed "Arkansas".

This car was also SLSF 4 for a short time between May 1947 and June 1948.

Photograph 1 as business car SLSF 1100. Looks to be a company photograph. Location, date and photographer unknown.

Photograph 2 as business car SLSF 8. Springfield depot, Springfield, MO. Photograph date April 17, 1948. Photograph by Arthur B. Johnson.

Photograph 3 as business car "Arkansas". Adjacent to the ice dock at Cherokee Yard, Tulsa, OK. Photograph date April, 1957. Photograph by Jerry Moore from the Pat Coughlin collection.

Tom

 

Here is another, different business car SLSF 4 (2nd).

Different from the business car SLSF 4 (1st) that became the "Arkansas".

This business car SLSF 4 (2nd) was the former SLSF 100, later SLSF 2, then became SLSF 14 and still later became the "Texas".

Photograph at the Springfield depot, Springfield, MO. Photograph dated April 17, 1948. Photograph by Arthur B. Johnson.

Tom

 

Four photographs of the business car that was eventually named "Kansas".

Photograph 1 as business car SLSF 2500. The number "2500" is barely visible above door. Other details unknown. Looks like a company photograph.

Photograph 2 as business car SLSF 5. Springfield depot, Springfield, MO. Photograph dated September 1947. Photograph by Arthur B. Johnson.

Photograph 3 as business car SLSF 7. Springfield depot, Springfield, MO. Other details unknown.

Photograph 4 as business car "Kansas". Tulsa Union Depot, Tulsa, OK. Photograph dated November 1957. Photograph by Jerry Moore from the Pat Coughlin collection.

 

Mike,

I've been squinting at the color photograph of business car "Missouri" in the book Birmingham Rails.

My guess would something close to Pullman green or maybe an "olive" color.

Hard to tell.

Tom

 

Two photographs of business car SLSF 6 that became "Oklahoma".

Photograph 1 as business car SLSF 6. Location unknown. Photograph dated August 31, 1950. Frisco company photograph.

Photograph 2 as business car "Oklahoma". Springfield depot, Springfield, MO. Photograph dated September 27, 1959. Photograph by Arthur B. Johnson.

 

Here are some more of my business car photographs.

Photograph 1 is the business car "Springfield", former SLSF 2 (1st), renumbered SLSF 4, later renumbered SLSF 3. Tulsa Union Depot, Tulsa, OK. Photograph dated 1957. Jerry Moore photograph from the Pat Coughlin collection.

Photograph 2 business car SLSF 5, later renamed "Alabama". Springfield depot, Springfield, MO. Photograph dated December 1953. Photograph by Tom Galbraith.

Photograph 3 business car SLSF 9, former SLSF 2200, renumbered SLSF 7, later renamed "Mississippi". Springfield depot, Springfield, MO. Photograph dated April 17, 1948. Photograph by Arthur B. Johnson.

In searching business car information, I found there were quite a few photographs posted in the frisco.org "Business Car" section before I joined last August.

For your information.

Tom

 

I appreciate all the chatter here about the business cars.

It is helpful in a number of ways and I am indebted to you all, but especially so to Tom. But for me there still is a question or two.

If the business car on the Wisconsin Central (WC)/SSAM, 100 "Superior", is the former business car "Tennessee", it would mean that it is the car that was owned by Ontario Northland (ON).

Does anyone have any idea which one became Midsouth (MS) "Prospector", renumbered to Kansas City Southern (KCS) 1887 "Arthur E. Stillwell", later renamed 1887 "Laredo", and now owned by Iowa Interstate (IAIS) and renamed "Hawkeye"?

I still need to nail down the history of these two cars for the Passenger Car Photo Index,

All help is greatly appreciated!

 

Oh yeah, I forgot business car "Saint Louis".

Probably the neatest Frisco business car of them all! I think there is also a photograph of this car posted earlier in the "Business Car" section in Pullman green and pin stripes, but without the name and just the SLSF 2 (2nd) on the sides.

I think this car would be the easiest to model since it is a welded smooth side. Business car "Saint Louis", later renumbered SLSF 2 (2nd), depending on paint scheme, would be a suitable model of any Frisco era from 1951 to 1980.

Photograph 1 as "Saint Louis". On the rear of passenger train No 710 south of the Ft. Smith depot, Ft. Smith, AR. Photograph dated 8/20/1961. Photograph by Gordon Mott or Louis Marre.

Photograph 2 as SLSF 2 (2nd). Photograph location, date and photographer details unknown.

Tom