OK! I know that the Frisco didn't have any dome cars, period, but did the Katy add any to the Texas Special?
No dome cars on either the Frisco or the Katy, Texas Special or otherwise. Not enough mountains and canyons I guess! Ken
So now my question is (getting away from real Frisco into Modeling) why do manufacturers make TX Spl, and Frisco consists with dome cars?
Because they (example AHM/IHC/Rivarossi) have a dome car in their passenger set, and they do up the entire set in Frisco/Katy TS colors, among others. And, they sell. Ken
Ha ha ha........does this remark ever bring back memories. My first ever "custom" paint job. I was about 9. I had an Athearn passenger train, B&O. A-B-A F-units, and the usual Athearn streamlined passenger car set. I saw that Lionel Texas Special set in a Sears Catalog. I decided I didn't need 2 A units in my B&O set. I hand painted, with my school water colors, that A unit into the Texas Special (or was if "Flyer"?). Yes, it was horrid. My Dad, now 73, still teases me about that one every now and then.
Funny, John. We all have done something like that in the past. I have done too much .. ruined more than a couple of now quite valuable loco's and cars. Thanks for the remark, figured I would get a rise outta someone.
Probably no domes on the real Texas Special mainly because it was a night train (most of its route). Tom
Now, back to the Real Frisco. Questions: 1) Did they have/use full length or the short RPOs? 2) Did they use four or six door baggage cars? 3) Were they streamlined and/or heavyweight baggage cars? and... 4) When Frisco used a racehorse, did Katy use an F3A & B (or what was used)? {I have a Frisco book that shows the TX Spl @ Dallas with a SLSF E8 and at least an MKT F?B but can't see the rest of the consist b/c of the curve it sits on}
The streamlined, lightweight RPO's used in the Texas Special and The Meteor consists were the short ones - 71 ft I think. Check Mike Condren's web site - he has a set of diagrams there you can download as I recall. There were no streamlined, lightweight baggage cars - the Frisco and Katy both used baggage cars from their regular roster. When they wanted a pure photo shot of either name train, they left the baggage cars off of the head end. Looked real spiffy then, but you rarely would see that in day-to-day practice. During my days at MSM in Rolla, #9 would come through with three to four heavyweight head end cars as I recall, and now and then, a heavyweight Pullman or two in addition to the regular lightweight cars. On #1 and #2, the normal practice was for each road to alternate supply of the power. So, usually it was a pair of SLSF E's, then next day a pair of MKT E's. Certainly, other units got mixed in sometimes. Ken
Just to supplement what Ken noted, the Katy also had some PAs that occasionally were used on #1 and #2. There are certainly photos of the PAs on the Texas Special in the St. Louis area (Frisco never owned any Alco passenger locomotives). I have also seen photos of Frisco passenger trains which required extra power so the two Frisco E-units would have one other unit spliced between them. Frisco had some F7Bs with steam heat and signaling lines, which were required for passenger service, that were used for this purpose. I have also seen steam generator equipped Frisco GP7 and steam generator equipped MKT F?B units (I think they were F3Bs or F7Bs, but I'm not positive and I don't have the photo in front of me). Paul
One additional thought on the Texas Special power. I have read that, during the diesel power era, the MKT would take the diesels off at Waco to service them. The train would get steam power for the trip to San Antonio. I believe there was an issue with getting the diesel engines serviced in time due to the short turnaround time in San Antonio. Cutting the engines off in Waco seemed to do the trick. Frisco Faster Freight! Rick
Building on Paul's point above, I recall a conversation with the late Lee Buffington - a true friend of all Friscodom, who told me the SLSF operating people just hated it when they saw the Katy send #2 up to the Frisco behind MKT's PA's. The PA's were usually in such bad shape in the late 1950's that, frequently, emergency SLSF servicing was needed at Springfield or Lindenwood to keep them running well enough to get them back to the Katy on #1. Though the Frisco didn't have any PA's, they did have experience with the ALCo 244 engine and control systems from their SLSF FA1, FB1 and RS-2 experiences. The ALCo's were good looking for sure, but were a PIA to most who rostered them. Ken
Here are some Texas Special engine consists of the '57-'59 period I've collected from photos and other data: --Frisco "Racehorse" E8's or E-7's (A-A combination) --Katy E-7's (A-A comb.) --Katy E-8's (A-A comb.) --Katy PA+PA (A-A comb.) --Katy or Frisco E-8's, spliced w/Katy F-7B (A-B-A) --Katy E-8+Katy F-7B+Frisco E-8 (A-B-A) --Katy PA+Katy F-7B+Katy E-8 (A-B-A) --Katy E-8 + Katy FP-7 (A-A) --Katy FP-7+Katy FP-7 (A-A) --Other lashups also very likely?? Also some writers have referred to "heavyweight" and "lightweight" consists on the Texas Special. When it was found that two trainsets weren't sufficient to protect the service and extra the heavyweight cars were decorated and put into service (after about two days) the cars became hopelessly shuffled (Think of dealing cards around a table). Some sleeper rountes required four cars, most car routes required three, but some only required two. Frisco and Katy diners stayed on their home rails. AND, each road often substituted regular cars with their own Pullman green heavyweights. Further, Meteor cars frequently ran on the Texas Special. If a modeler wants to model the Texas Special, about anything goes (Except Lionel red and white O27 FA diesels). Tom
Paul - Are any of the photos of MKT PA's on the TS in St Louis published anywhere or available on-line? I know it happened now and then, but I don't know that I've seen a pic. Would love to see one. The MKT ran their PA's on The Bluebonnet often, but I think The Bluebonnet quit coming to StL on Frisco rails well before the Katy had any passenger diesels other than the Texas Special E7's. Ken
I believe the St. Louis-Texas version of the Blue Bonnet was taken off when the Texas Special was streamlined. Tom
I'm trying to remember where I saw the pictures now... All I can find is photos of an MKT PA1 at the TRRA engine terminal during the 1950s. I don't know if the Katy had any other passenger trains running to St. Louis at that point in time, so this isn't a definitive answer to the question. One of the photos is on Doug Elwood's site here: http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/mkt/mkt154arp.jpg There is another photo showing an MKT PA at the TRRA engine terminal on page 101 of Trackside around St. Louis 1952-1959 with Jim Ozment (Morning Sun). I'm still searching my archives to find my notes on MKT PAs, which probably has the location of the photos... Paul
Incidentally, Steve Goen's Miss Katy in the Lone Star State, Volume One - The Good Old Days (1942-1960) does include photos of MKT PAs on the Texas special, but they are all in San Antonio, not St. Louis. Paul
The single Katy engines in the daytime St. Louis photos (steam-PA-E-8) were the Katy Flyer engines staying over for the westbound (southbound) run. Katy #6 arrived in the moring, #5 left around midnight. Tom
Agree on the pic of the single MKT PA sitting in the TRRA yard being a unit off the Katy itself - the old line on the north side of the Missouri River that came in via Sedalia and St Charles. Plus, if off the TS, there would have been two MKT units unless something unusual was going on. I would think the MKT power that came up to StL on #2 would have been handled just as the SLSF power was on Frisco's inbound passenger runs - after delivering their train to StL Union Station, the power ran light out to Lindenwood for servicing. Then, later, back down to StLUS light to pick up their train for the outbound. Thus, per Lee's comment, the guys at Lindenwood likely did have to work on them now and then when the Katy PA's showed up in StL gasping and wheezing. Ken
