To All: As Rick McClellan recently did concerning Command Control Systems, I am starting a new thread about Sound & Sound Decoders with hopes that everyone will submit ideas, thoughts, etc. about this exciting and relatively new aspect of our hobby.I, like several others that I know, have waited for the political issues that have dogged the sound decoder part of our industry to be ironed out. Thanks in part to the NMRA, these issues have been hopefully settled so that major sound decoder innovators like QSI and Soundtraxx can proceed with introducing after market sound decoders without fears of legal repurcussions. Both of the above mentioned companies have recently begun releasing more and more advanced decoders for very realistic sound and lighting effects. Unfortunately, not one decoder will work for every application. Case in point is the long awaited diesel Tsunami decoder which the first two versions are non-turbocharged 567 prime mover and turbo-charged 645 prime mover. By reading the documentation, they are incredible in some of the features they offer such as Western-Cullin Rotating Beacons, Pyle-Gyra Lights, and BEMF* which are all great for Frisco modelers. After fellow modeler Bob Wintle installed both of these lighting features in my GP 38's and adjusted them using TCS Decoders, the effect needs to be seen to be believed. Call it nit-picking, but if I'm going that far, I also would like to hear the distinctive sound of the Leslie 5 chime horn (Soundtraxx does offer that and I believe QSI does as well). There are several of us that have contacted Soundtraxx about doing a non-turbocharged version of the 645 prime mover. They are going to release an Atlas drop-in decoder board in the near future like QSI already has* but won't commit to the other.The above serves as just one example of what I hope this thread will produce in the way of feedback, opinions, ideas, installation photos, etc. on an ongoing basis just as Rick's did. We all learn from these discussions and sharing. Bob HooverFriscoFriend***
Below is a VERY LENGTHY, but in may opinion worthwhile explanation of the difference between the new Soundtraxx 567 non-turbocharged and 645 turbocharged versions of their Tsunami decoder. After reading it, it is self-explanatory as to it's application to Frisco locomotives, most specifically the Atlas GP38. Rumor has it that Soundtraxx will soon release theTsunami in a drop-in Atlas light board version. The following was posted on the Soundtraxx Yahoo Group by a gentleman named Mark Gurries whom I consider to be a trusted expert on these matters. Also someone else has suggested tweaking the CV's on the 567 to minimize the transitions. I will look for it and post it if I find it. ******************************************************************* The turbo make a BIG difference in what you hear. Its called the turbo whine and is always present in the exhaust sound. You cannot ignore it. It is much harder to tell the difference between a 567 and a 645 that are configure the same way. Hence your better off putting in a non turbo 567 decoder in locomotive that had a non turbo 645 engine installed. Same in reversed, place a 645 turbo sound decoder into a 567 turbo engine for the same reason. Transitions and the 567 vs 645: Although not directly related to the engines themselves, the era's these engines were sold in respectively had another coordinated difference you could hear. Locomotives from the factory equipped with 567 engines had to go through "transitions" as you went up in throttle notches. A Transition is a Traction Motor electrical issue that must be coordinated with the engine as the speed of the locomotive is increased. Under acceleration, the engine suddenly backs off in power while it waits for the "contactor" to re-arrange the traction motor wiring to permit higher speed running. When the contact completes the new connections, the engine is re-engaged. You could think of this process not unlike a clutch as part of a manual transmission. Your supposed to disengage the engine (clutch in) before shifting gears so to speak and then let the clutch out followed by hitting the gas. However, this process was actually an automatic action and not manual one. But the process was so slow that you clearly can hear it happen as if it was being done manually! The transition problem was eventually eliminated and introduced as a new feature along with the then new 645 engine in the GP38/40 and SD38/40 models. My point is: 645 engines do not go through transitions. This is the "technical flaw" of installing a 567 DCC decoder into a GP38. It will have the extra and un-prototypical transitions sounds that should not exist. But compared to the turbo sound, I can live with this flaw as it would be harder to pick out under normal running conditions. The same would be true in reverse for a GP30/35 SD24 in terms of using a 645 turbo sound DCC decoder for these type of engines. The flaw here is the 567 engines will be missing the transition sound. ******************************************************************** Bob Hoover FriscoFriend
Transition is going from series to parallel as speed of the locomotive increases. Lower speed more amps, higher speed less amps. Most of the time it was not noticeable unless the shunting contactors were dirty. Bob, what engine did the GP35’s and SD45’s have? I know the SD45 was a 20 cylinder job that consumed large amounts of diesel fuel. There was nothing that sounded better than the turbo kicking in on the SD45’s. At the time it was the essence of power and speed! I installed a Lock Sound decoder in an E8 (proto 2000) and am some what disappointed in it. Every time track power is turned on or you hit a dirty spot the prime mover goes into the start up mode (actually sounds like the engine is being started). Very un-prototypical. Although sound decoders leave a lot to be desired, it is neat to hear your train going around the track. It would be even nicer if there was a decoder that responded to speed and amps as the trains goes up or down grades etc. Jerome
Jerome: I am NOT an expert on decoder programming nor do I ever intend to be. Having said that I will try and identify which locomotive models didn't have turbocharging. Maybe it was an option on some models such as the GP15 as they were poduced in both turbocharged (GP15T) and non-turbocharged models. In regards to your second concern, if I read the documentation correctly, one can actually replicate the effect you desire by setting CV 116 to 0 and then being able to manually control the engine RPM's by one notch each time Function 9 is pressed and decreased by a notch each time Function 10 is pressed. Fellow Frisco modeler Bob Wintle has ordered a diesel Tsunami and will be testing it and reporting his results on this forum. He can further expound upon his findings. Bottom line, this new generation of decoders seem to almost defy imagination as to what they can replicate. If anyone is more in interested in actually previewing what they can do, go to the manufacturer's website and download the respective manuals. Bob Hoover FriscoFriend
Bob, I wasn’t implying you were an expert. I thought you wanted to start a thread on sound decoders so I was giving some input. Thanks for the tip on CV116. I will try that. However, my reference was to the decoder sensing the increased/decreased amp draw or speed and making the sound correction itself. Much like BEMF does for speed. Incidentally, after doing some research I will answer my own question. The SD45 had a 20-645E3 and the GP35 had a 567D3A, for prime movers. The only EMD engines on the Frisco roster that were turbo charged (to my knowledge). Also, they did make transition as the earlier writer indicated. They would drop there load (you could actually watch the amp meter go to zero) and then pick it back up. If you had a long heavy train with auto racks and/or pigs it could cause sever slack action. But I can not remember a GP7/F7 doing that. I would agree that sound decoders have come along way. However, to replicate the real thing in a 6 or 8 inch model is not possible. Most of the models I have on my layout are sound equipped, but I have a few that aren’t and I like to run them so I can enjoy the actual sound the model makes. Thanks, Jerome
Jerome: I didn't even think of your comment when I posted the "NOT an expert" verbiage. What is was trying to say in a global way was that it may have seemed that I was posting some pretty technical sounding stuff when I was only suggesting that it looked like some of these things could be done. I think the apology should be from me to you, not the other way. Bob Hoover FriscoFriend
All, Ken pointed out in another thread: >>>GP35's, GP40-2's, SD45's, SD40-2's, GP50's - all were turbocharged<<< Thanks for the correct information. Jerome
A synopsis by a man named Paul Turnvill comparing the QSI Revolution and the Soundtraxx Tsunami has been posted on the Tony's Train Exchange website. http://tonystrains.com/technews/qsi-revo-tsunami.htm It seems to favor the QSI Quantum Revolution to the extent that QSI has cross posted it on their site. In the early stages of their introduction, I raised the question to them through the Yahoo Group concerning the lack of lighting functions as they related to RR's such as the Frisco (needing both a rotating beacon and a nose gyralight). They were at the time offering separate functions for a cab light and numberboards instead?? To their credit and by reading their upgraded literature they seem to be now offering these options. The one concern that I still have is the unavailability of a Leslie 5 chime horn as they only offer a 3 chime one. Also, it seems like they require the purchase of an additional programmer ($99 SRP) to be able to download their sound sets. Soundtraxx offers both a Leslie 5 chime horn and both specific lighting options, and now the 645 prime mover without turbocharging. Without putting these two side by side which I hope someone can do, a real FRISCO comparison can't be made. On paper, if QSI would offer a Leslie 5 chime horn and their lighting options were acceptable (sorry I'm spoiled on TCS lights) they might be the better choice. One upside of the QSI Revolution is the ability to take a base decoder out of say a GP38 that may have fallen off the layout and move it over to a B30-7 (both Atlas boards) and just reprogram the sounds. That one move would cover the cost of the programmer. Bob Hoover FriscoFriend
