Leaky Roof?

Discussion in 'General' started by Coonskin, Dec 30, 2018.

  1. palallin

    palallin Member


    Per Collias' MoPac Power, the Pacific RR--the main branch, as it were--regauged July 18, 1869. It does NOT clarify whether or not the SW Branch was included. FWIW, the reasoning had to do with the opening of the Eads bridge. Prior to that year, there was a MO law--based on James Kirkwood's recommendation--that established 5' 6" as the gauge of MO RRs. He promised that the Mighty Mississippi would never be bridged and so wanted a wider gauge for more volume capacity. (As a mostly irrelevant aside, the St. Louis & Iron Mountain built to 5" 6", and they had to change twice, once to 5' (1969) and then to standard gauge (1879). This data is also at variance with that posted above.

    I have my MoPac handy but not my Frisco or my Miner book, so I can't compare the references.
    mountaincreekar likes this.
  2. Coonskin

    Coonskin Member

    Hi Palallin:

    The standard gauge conversion I originally quoted was from Lloyd Stagner's book, with my reference citing page/paragraph.

    In his "Frisco Power" book, Joe Collias mentions nothing about conversion to standard gauge, apparently such detail was beyond the scope he intended for his Chapter 1: "BRIEFLY, SOME HISTORY... A Stormy Beginning".

    Collias does state on page 1 (6th paragraph) of Chapter 1: "In June 1866, the state sold seperately the parent Pacific Company and the branch in order to satisfy the lien. The Southwest Branch was sold to General John C. Fremont, who attempted to rehabilitate it under the name of the Southwest Pacific Railroad."

    So, it would seem to me that the the Pacific (ancestor to your Missouri Pacific) and the Southwest Branch became separate entities at that point. Thus, what the Pacific did would have a different history than the decedent(s) of the Southwest Branch. Thus, IMHO, no variance, just different histories. However, given the date (1869) that Miner refers to for conversion to standard gauge on the (then) South Pacific RR, it could be that both lines adjusted their gauges around the same time frame.

    Yes, Miner mentions the Kirkwood insistence on wide gauge for west of the Mississippi in MO. That soon began to be to the state's detriment and was remedied early on.

    I'm comfortable that I have enough handle on the general history of Springfield that I can fit my Ozark & Southern's origin among it.

    What I'm not comfortable with, is down on the south end. Online history states that the Little Rock & Fort Smith reached Clarksville, AR by 1873, and reached Van Buren by Jan 1879. However, seeing as the LR&FS was an offshoot of the Cairo & Fulton (which may have also had association with the Pacific Railroad?), could the LR&FS have been wide gauge? The ONLY picture of one of the LR&SF engines (their No. 1) is shared below, but not much can be discerned in regards to gauge:


    Now, the ONLY reason the gauge of the LR&FS is important to me is for interchange reasons with my mythical Ozark & Southern.

    Once more, my head hurts.

    (All this, just so I can concoct a fictional "history" for my Ozark & Southern model railroad concept??)

    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
  3. I don't know the original gauge of the LR&FS. But if it was 5 foot gauge at one time, that doesn't necessarily preclude interchange of freight cars, although it would make it more of a nuisance.

    The KC Fort Scott & Gulf's 1885 entry in Sechrist's Hand-Book and Railway Equipment Mileage Guide (a predecessor to the ORER) refers to certain KCFS&G boxcars as "Jonesboro Hoist" cars and KCC&S boxcars as "Memphis Hoist" cars. I believe these references are to car hoists at those two locations which allowed trucks of different gauges to be swapped out from under the cars. Jonesboro was the point where the KCFS&G (later KCFS&M) crossed the 3-foot gauge Texas & St Louis / St. Louis Arkansas & Texas (later SLSW/Cotton Belt, standard gauged in 1886 according to the Encyclopedia of Arkansas), and Memphis still had some five-foot gauge lines at the time, including the East Tennesee Virginia & Georgia (later part of the Southern; also standard-gauged in 1886 according to Wikipedia.)

    I don't know exactly what kind of mechanisms might have been involved, although it might have resembled the Ramsey Transfer Apparatus, which is described in a few places online:
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
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  4. Coonskin

    Coonskin Member

    Thanks for chiming in with some more input, Bradley!

    I'm still in the process of trying to sort all this out. I'm running into some apparent conflicting information at this point. I'm also having difficulty finding a graphical source that shows the state of Arkansas (or Little Rock) with its various RR lines and their dates of construction as we have seen for the Springfield area here in this thread. Finding such a graphic would help tremendously.

    Indications are that construction of the LR&FS commenced before the arrival of the Cairo & Fulton, which was somewhat a parent line to the LR&FS. IF this is so, then the only available connection I've determined thus far for the LR&FS would be the Memphis & Little Rock, a 5' 6" gauge line that was built prior to/during/and after the Civil War. Oddly, the M&LR was built in sections, thus the western section (the Little Rock section) was in place during the Civil War. IF this is the line that the LR&FS originally connected to, thus received supplies from, it is possible that the original LR&FS was 5' 6" gauge, also.

    My head is hurting again. o_O

    mountaincreekar likes this.
  5. If you haven't discovered it yet, the online Encyclopedia of Arkansas has some good information on the topic. See below, for example, and the links to entries for specific railroad companies. I didn't see a map, though.

    Also, there's a 1948 two-part Arkansas Historical Quarterly article by Stephen Woods that might be of interest. It appears to be available on JSTOR; let me know by email if you can't access it.
    Part 1: https://www.jstor.org/stable/40027484
    Part 2: https://www.jstor.org/stable/40037853
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
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  6. palallin

    palallin Member

    Good point on the date of the sale, Andre--that one slipped my mind. Somehow, I was placing it later.

    That said, SW Branch/Frisco trains ran into St. Louis over the Pac/A&P/MoPac rails into St. Louis until the 1880s (I think I have the decade right), so it seems unlikely that they would have remained different gauges for long, if at all.
    Sirfoldalot likes this.
  7. Coonskin

    Coonskin Member

    Hi again Bradley!

    Yes, your first link has been my primary source of information for most of these lines.

    Unfortunately, I cannot access the above information.


    Before 4' 8 1/2" became honest-to-goodness "standard gauge" in this nation... it was a nightmare.

    Likely, the LR&FS was wide gauge at its onset, but it would have converted to standard gauge as soon as it would be expedient to do so. At any rate, by the late 1880s, ALL the regional RR's in proximity to my free lanced theme were standard gauge, so I'm straining at a gnat here... but it's the way I am about some things. (I think it's called being "anal" by some!)

    Sirfoldalot likes this.
  8. palallin

    palallin Member

    I have been thinking abut this. While I agree that the numerous gauges made real messes in some places--Erie, PA, being a prime example--I have never heard of a need to change trucks or reload rolling stock at Franklin/Pacific. I sure don't claim to have heard everything, so I am more than willing to be corrected, but I am betting that the gauge change happened simultaneously on both the parent road and the SW off-shoot at the same time. If nothing else, the nascent Frisco had to get its trains to St. Louis and would have been forced to make the change, even if the effort was not coordinated between the two. I am also willing to bet--but less confidently--that there was a coordinated effort. I am not sure the financial division was as thorough as we might imagine. I need to look at Miner again.
  9. Ryndi Collier

    Ryndi Collier Member

    I am wondering if you or anyone has information on the KCC&S railroad north of Eudora. I'm trying to buy some land that appears to have the remnants of the rr easement, but I'm trying to determine if there are still rights owned by the RR because the line was abandoned and was never built on the parcels I'm looking at.

    I would appreciate any and all information anyone could provide me.
  10. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    As a kid, we spent a lot of wonderful time each summer in the Ozarks in Dillard, MO, in Crawford County. Wonderful area, lots of rustic scenery, lots of good fishing in the Huzzah. Stayed in The Old Mill Lodge (at Dillard Mill, still there), owned by Mr/Mrs Lester Klemme, from Kirkwood, Mo. We'd generally do two long weekends there each summer - the last was always Labor Day weekend. But ..... you had to be able to handle the chiggers!
    It was always fun driving down there from StL with all the time spent running along the Frisco clear into Steelville. Usually drove down on Friday
    morning, returned home Sunday or Monday night after dinner. Often saw The Meteor run by around St Clair - Sullivan, but sometimes missed it on the few spots where the RR was not close to US 66.
    Was there last maybe ten years ago. Great memories!
    Ozarktraveler and Joe Lovett like this.
  11. klrwhizkid

    klrwhizkid Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Karl has provided some insight on another thread: http://www.frisco.org/shipit/index.php?threads/kcc-s-railroad-north-of-eudora.12570/#post-79680
  12. Ty Bewley

    Ty Bewley Member

    Good Evening.....
    Ok...I have been Researching the KCC&S for quite some time....and in that I went down the Rabbit Trail...of the Osage River Navigation looking
    for Pictures of the KCC&S and the High Line Bridges that crossed the Osage...does anyone have pictures of the KCC&S Bridge????
    and does anyone ….know if they Loaded freight from the Osage River onto The Rail....or from the Rail to the River????????? Because of the Boats
    Plying the Osage in the late 1830's up till the 1920's hauling freight...long before they built Rail road Bridges over the river...at Osceola


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