Fictional Model Railroad Kansas Lines - Era Post Frisco

I am modeling a semi-fictional RR that connects Pueblo & Kansas City.

In my quest to lay out this lines history I have made the assumption that in the late 70's or early 80's it purchased the Ellsworth - Wichita line. I'm also assuming that in the mid to late 80's it was able to secure the line east from Wichita to Carthage.

I have a few questions and opinions to ask of you guys.

First the opinion items:

1. Does the sale seem like something the Frisco and, or BN would have done?

2. Also, assuming the purchase went through, do you think the road would have maintained service from Wichita to Carthage or Wichita, past Carthage, to the BN connection (their reasoning for the purchase was a more direct connection with the KCS for traffic moving south - mainly grain and coal)?

Now the factual items:

Can anybody give me an idea of what operations were like on the Ellsworth - Wichita line and the line east from Wichita?

Thanks a million in advance. I am trying to make my fictional RR as "real" as possible.

Matt

 

Matt:

My name is Bob Hoover (aka FriscoFriend) and I am actually modeling part of the line you are describing, that being from Neodesha west to at least east of Severy.

Along with my friend Tony LaLumia (Friscotony) and several others we have collected much information over the years about this line. I would be glad to help you and if you are ever in Wichita you are welcome to stop by and operate the part of the line currently built, that being the Neodesha yard.

Now, I will try and give you some brief answers to your questions.

(1) This is not something that turned out to be possible because of one key happening. Upon deciding that they no longer wanted the line shortly after the merger into the BN, the railroad pulled the diamond at Augusta where it crossed the Santa Fe main line thus breaking it in half.

Others can weigh in here but there was a rumor floated that the KCS in partnership with the Watco group wanted access into the Wichita market and the BN wanted no part of that. Watco actually purchased the line from Monett to Fredonia and still operates it successfully today including a new engine terminal at Cherryvale.

The other parts of the line sat dormant for several years as various groups tried to revive them, but between Augusta and Fredonia there were actually only two customers left, CO-OP's in Leon and Severy.

(2) I think that I answered this in my response about the KCS in answer (1) which is why they quickly pulled the diamond in Augusta.

Between Tony and me we can give you about all you would want to know about operations on this line. Tony is more knowledgeable about the Ellsworth part than I am.

In the post you mentioned something about semi-fictional aspects about what you want to do. I can tell you that on my rendition of the line I have incorporated just such an element to generate more traffic. The area east of Severy is rich in mineral resources with the biggest tonnage item being limestone.

For years there was a huge quarry on the Santa Fe at Moline that exhausted itself about the time we are referring to. The operation moved to another location about 3 miles east of Severy and word had it that they actually poured a pad and were in negotiation with the Watco group about commencing shipment of limestone from there.

I might add that this part of the line from Fredonia to Severy had yet to be scrapped. Therefore I am incorporating this quarry into my version of the line.

Also, we have a very good Free-Mo group here that Tony is a member of and they have modeled in modular form various elements of the line including the Frisco 19th Street Yard.

I hope this helps and have fun!

 

Bob is mostly correct about the Monett to Wichita portion of the line after the BNSF merger.

Watco purchased the line from Columbus to Augusta as the Kansas Eastern (KE) Railroad and since then we have abandoned from Fredonia to Augusta due to no traffic being on this segment.

When we took over there were two active customers west of Fredonia, Fleming Feed and Grain at Leon and a power pole distributer at Beaumont. The Coop at Severy had stopped using rail before we purchased the line. We actually ran a couple of trains as far as Severy before we dropped service on this section.

The line from Monett to Columbus was retained by the BNSF but service west of Carthage was dropped. The BNSF removed the diamond at Columbus soon after the merger. As Bob said the crossing at Augusta was removed and the section from Augusta to Wichita was retained for a short while by the BNSF but service over it was dropped.

The BNSF abandoned most of it in Sedgwick County (Wichita) and sold from Augusta to Andover to Butler County who could not find an operator so it was also pulled up. The part in Butler County and the line from Augusta to Fredonia have been put into the rails to trails program.

The BNSF sold all of the track in Carthage to the Missouri and Northern Arkansas who operates it today. From Carthage to Columbus was abandoned and removed with the part in Missouri also made into a trail. From near Carthage to Monett is still owned by the BNSF but rail has been removed on both ends.

It has been speculated that the BNSF will be abandoning this section within the near future.

John Chambers

 

Matt:

I might add at this point that I am glad that John weighed in here because he also has been a valuable source of information to me.

He is a very knowledgeable historian who actually works for Watco and therefore has access to information and resources that others don't. As I stated in the earlier post, please feel free to contact me about what I have learned and I will be glad to share it with you.

I can't speak for John (mvtelegrapher) or Tony (Friscotony) but it wouldn't hurt to contact both of them also.

 

Does it seem reasonable at all to assume that as a possible concession in the Frisco - BN merger that my line could have won rights to purchase the line in it's entirety from Ellsworth to Monett?

I really would like this line as a part of my system, but I am trying to keep things as real and plausible as possible so I can create a very convincing freelance road.

At some point I should make a post with all major info about my RR so you all can see how I see the Frisco lines playing in.

Matt

 

Matt:

Of course that is reasonable and plausible. Unless you are modeling a specific railroad and picking a specific point in time, you can choose to do anything that you want. You are creating your version of history or to put it another way, how you envision the course history would have taken.

I didn't mention this earlier, but there was another line severence that affected operations. The diamond at one point was pulled just west of Buhler and service to Ellsworth at that point was eliminated. The flour plant at Buhler was a big customer and warrated service to it.

Your proposal brings up another interesting scenerio that you might want to consider and actually the following also applies to others in the planning stage of their layouts. Look at the line you want to model and as I did identify all of the current or potential industries along it that could supply revenue. I am making the assumption that you want to operate which I hope you do. Then look at how many carloads of freight and what kind to they generate. After having one that, then consider putting your creative salesman hat on and create some more traffic on your own.

John Chambers mentioned the telephone poll distributor in Beaumont which I had totally forgotten about. Here in the middle of nowhere sat an empty 4 track yard that was turned into a storage facility and distribution point for telephone poles.

I mentioned my rock crusher east of Severy as another example. If the circumstances were right, it could have become a major traffic generator in the real world and kept that part of the line open longer.

At Neodesha in the late 1970's there were very few revenue producing industries left. I am adding a Walthers Black Gold Asphalt plant to a siding there and will be able to bring in both tank cars and hopper cars to serve it. These were portable and moved around the country and were set up close to where a new stretch of road was being paved.

If you need help with existing customers, just let me know.

 

In a year or 2 when I actually start construction of my layout I am ideally wanting to model from Hays (my road's main yard) east to Ellsworth and the south towards Wichita some distance.

Here is the traffic mix I am looking at right now:

Between Hays and Kansas City:

Eastbound would be a Denver to KC intermodal / manifest, a Pueblo to KC manifest, and a Hays to Kansas City manifest dropping and picking up local traffic as well as some local work.

As far as the old Frisco line I'd imagine a Hays to Wichita road switcher / local and a Hays to Shreveport (to KCS at Joplin) as well as a Wichita to Carthage / Monett road switcher with a local switcher here and there possibly.

I'd also run grain extras as needed from Hays and Wichita to the KCS, MN&A, and others as needed. I'm also toying with the idea of a Colorado coal train or 2 a few days a week heading down the line for KCS interchange.

This would of course be mirrored westbound.

I can provide any other details and reasoning for my trains you guys might be interested. I'm just trying to make sure I'm a s plausible as possible, for a fake RR...haha.

Matt