INTERCHANGING PASSENGER CARS

I know that freight cars were interchanged between railroads but what about Passenger cars? In the era I am modeling which is 1941-50, Did railroads interchange passenger cars between their respective routes?

I know the Frisco and Katy had the Texas Special where they shared cars between them although they had their TEXAS SPECIAL cars.

For example, say, a FRISCO sleeper was dropped off in the middle of the night with passengers continuing onto a different route, and a passenger train of another railroad pick up the car and take it onto its destination or were the passengers forced to deboard at a larger terminal and change trains. I am thinking this is what happened but I want to make sure.
My wife and I are fond of the colorful passenger cars from the SP Daylight, the TEXAS SPECIAL, and the KCS Southern Belle. Would it be odd to have a passenger train with mixed passenger cars from various railroads on it.

 

I know some of my questions shows my lack of knowledge for the era I am modeling and the FRISCO in General. But I love the FRISCO for their unique equipment and their beautiful steam and diesel locomotives as well as their for lack of a better phrase HOME GROWN equipment. I am thankful for this site and the knowledge all of you have and how helpful all of you are in sharing your knowledge in my quest to learn all I can. I took my friend Bob Wintles advice and am one of the newest members of the NMRA and now feel I am complete in having all the tools to make my hobby a long lasting fun experience as well as having everything I need to learn about the FRISCO railroad. Another reason I love it so much is it ran right thru my back yard. Which makes for all the more reason I need to stay true to my colors so to speak!!!

 

A middle 1950's Texas Special consist would have cars belonging to both the Frisco and Katy of course (Lightweight and heavyweight, red and silver or Pullman Green). There could also be sleeping cars from B&O, PRR and Wabash in the train. Perhaps also "baggage" cars (Usually express and/or mail) from other "foreign" lines (Like NYC, PRR, IC etc.).
The Frisco and M-K-T had an elaborate and complicated contractual agreement with regard to the joint operation of The Texas Special. Included were crew, engine and car mileage costs. Fuel costs, supplies, repairs, maintenence and on and on. Outside of such a permanent arrangement (Like the Texas Special train), railroad companies paid and were paid per diem charges when their cars ran on other lines (And vise-versa). Those charges were on both head end (Mail-baggage-express) cars and passenger carrying cars. Sleeping cars were (but not always) operated on agreements between the railroad and the Pullman Company. Before 1948 sleeping cars were (usually) owned and operated by Pullman. After 1948, the railroads owned the sleeping cars and Pullman operated them. Finally, sleeping car exchanges between RR companies usually were done at large terminals (Like St. Louis, Chicago and Kansas City).

Tom G.

 

To answer your question generally, yes, passenger cars were interchanged, but nearly as commonly as freight cars, since passenger trains did not deliver "loose" cars to random destinations. Most commonly this was done with sleeping cars, as more often than not, coach passengers made across-the-platform connections. So you had, for example, N&W-Southern operating the TENNESSEAN, C&NW-UP-SP running the CITY OF SAN FRANCISCO, Milwaukee-Soo and the COPPER COUNTRY LIMITED and so on. Tom is correct that operations of this type were governed by contractual agreements regarding whose equipment, crews, commissaries, etc., were used and at what cost. What you did not have were situations where a switch crew would go and select X number of coaches, a diner and a couple of sleepers from a terminal company coach yard and make up a mixed equipment "rainbow" train like you might have seen in the early Amtrak era. Passenger equipment tended not to stray from their assigned routes unless they were Pullman-owned "pool" cars that were available for short lease during peak travel seasons (mostly summer, Thanksgiving, Christmas and Florida trains in the winter).

GS

 

In early times there were relatively few occasions when coaches might be seen away from home rails at least in the heavyweight era, though through coaches did get used on specific trains and just sometimes, diners. Even at the height of the 1920s and matched heavyweight consists diners were usually provided by the home road. Prior to the streamliner era the only two through workings of diners that I can think of were heavyweight IC diners used on the Central of Georgia for the Seminole and N&W coaches and diners on the Southern's 41 and 42 from Lynchburg to Birmingham from about the mid 30s to the 40s.

Post war there were many more examples - ACL coaches could be seen on the PRR for example, but usually in the consist of a named train such as the South Wind.

Sleepers were a different matter; before 1948 when the Pullman cars were (mostly) sold to the railroad companies, almost all sleepers would have been Pullman owned and marked, with certain cars painted for specific trains or services. After 1948 when Pullman sold many cars to the railroad companies, through Pullman cars marked for foreign railroads could be seen on a regular basis - Southern Pullman cars could be seen on the KC-Fla Special for example, although through ticketed coach passengers usually had to change cars at Birmingham.

To justify the use of foreign road cars you most probably need a train that starts or ends on a connecting road that shared the running of the train in question - as noted above passenger cars simply weren't interchanged like boxcars. Special arrangements were the rule of the day for most workings- you might find the odd unusual working when a railroad borrowed a car from a friendly neighbour in time of shortage or mechanical trouble, but this would be an exception and not something I would choose to model without a good and well-documented story to back it up.

 

I agree with all of the answers in that passenger equipment that was interchanged between roads on a regular basis was governed by specific contracts and moves and you seldom if ever had a mixed consist of equipment that was made up on the spure of the moment. The only other times I can think of where equipment might run through on another road was on certain special trains such as convention specials, football specials, political campaign trains, boy scout and military movements.

John Chambers

 

Another thing that kept railroads from interchanging passenger equipment was the different mechanical systems used by the roads. Each railroad seemed to have a prefered system for such things as air conditioning, air brakes, etc. This meant that if something broke down on another road you would hope they had the parts and the trained staff to fix the problem. This became apparent early on in the Amtrak era when they mixed all of the equipment they inherited together and ran it all over the country then tried to have parts available everywhere for the various systems and people trained to repair each one. This lead to a lot of mechanical breakdowns. It also didn't help that much of the equipment they got was worn out and hadn't been well maintained.

John Chambers

 

Willie - Everyone on this thread makes valid points, and they are all correct in their analyses. But it all depends on how prototypical you want to be. If you really would like to tack a couple of CN and NdeM sleepers onto the Southern Belle and call it a 1950's NAFTA Special, go ahead and do it. I doubt that Tony Koester would ever see it in action to comment on it.

-Kevin Blair
Cherry Valley Model Railroad Club

Oh, and I'm pretty sure you could put an NdeM sleeper on the Texas Eagle!

 

Incompatibilty also occurred with voltage (32 volt vs 64 volt) and air conditioning (the Santa Fe used a steam ejection system) as well as draft gear. Life would have been easier and less expensive after WWII had the railroads agreed on common long distance coach profiles.Instead most orers were built tp pet specs of the individual buyers save for jointly operated trains such as the Texas Special (1917-1959) and the Blue Bonnet (1928-1948).

 

It's a wonder that those old school railroad moguls agreed on standard couplers and 4' 8 1/2" gauge!!!

TG

 

"you seldom if ever had a mixed consist of equipment that was made up on the spure of the moment..."

One of the only times that such would be done is when the consist that is suppose to be operating as a specific train is delayed in transit to a specific location, with cars from other trains (especially so a train that had through cars) would be pressed into service to fit the need for the train, often with some unusual mixing of cars. I know of one time when one of the Southern trains between Atlanta and Washington was somehow delayed (don't remember off hand which train it was nor why it was unable to get to Charlotte, N.C., in a timely fashion), the connecting Augusta Special consist was pressed into being a make-shift consist so that the passengers from Charlotte and northward would be able to travel in a timely fashion. Since the sleepers and coaches would have continued on the other train it made enough of a consist to fit the need, with other odd cars added at Charlotte and other points north to meet the train's needs.

On the Burlington group at Yahoo! Groups recently has been discussing the use of foreign heavyweight sleepers as coach accommodations of a specific train and while I am unsure if the answer as to why this occurred has been determined it is another example of odd operations. While a C&NW sleeper was usually used on the train at least one occasion a L&N heavyweight sleeper was used in its place, making for an unusual consist (led by a passenger hood unit no less).

 

There are many examples of interchanging passenger equipment between trains: Foreign sleepers on the Meteor out of Lawton (Frisco markers would not fit on Pennsy streamlined sleepers); The Frisco remnant of the Meteor picking up a streamlined Santa Fe sleeper in Tulsa and bringing it to Oklahoma City for delivery back to the Santa Fe (Frisco markers wouldn't fit on it either); the time that the 60' RPO on the Rock Island Twin Star Rocket broke down and was replaced with two baggage-RPO's with their RPO sections together (one a heavyweight RI car and the other an L&N heavyweight car. I could go on and one, but will not at this time.