Discussion in 'Freight Operations' started by Gabriel Gerard, Apr 12, 2021.
No problem. I'm always glad to help.
Thanks for the great thread! It looks like in the early 1970's, the CTB was run through to the SCL as well, bound for Hamlet. There is a small amount of information on the SCL run throughs in the SCL run through correspondence available here. An excerpt:
I have some more questions.
Do we know an approximate date when the QLA/CTB arrangements started? And the NWF/FSE?
Also, do we know what the original train numbers were for these runthroughs? Looking through ETT's this morning, the first time I can find the actual QLA label is a 73 Eastern Division ETT. By 75, all of the lettered trains are in there.
Also, an observation I made this morning is that the 75 Northern Division ETT lists a south bound train labeled UPX, but the 79 ETT doesn't list it. Could UPX be the other half of KCX?
Thanks for sharing. It's impressive how many run-through trains SCL operated during the 1970s. This explains why SCL power could be seen all over the country in locations such as North Platte (Bailey), Houston (Englewood) and Tulsa (Cherokee).
Believe it or not, we know the exact date Frisco and Santa Fe started pooling power: 10 January 1962. As for when Frisco started pooling power with Union Pacific and Seaboard Coast Line, a cursory search on Google Books suggests it was sometime in 1969 when Trains published a blurb about the new run-through service.
I believe it may have started earlier than that.
The F9B units and the two F3As rebuilt to F9A standards were equipped with dynamic brakes for use on pool trains with the Santa Fe. Those were delivered mid 1950s, if I remember correctly.
Mike Schafer's book Classic American Railroads Volume III contains the following passage in its entry about the Frisco:
Regarding the reference to Classic American Railroads Volume III.... Frisco trains 37 and 437 originated at St Louis, not Birmingham. 37 was a St Louis-Irving/DFW train, 437 ran all the way to the QA&P Floydada-ATSF connection.
435 was the Birmingham-Floydada train.
As early as March 1960, Frisco was running 435 and 437 west to Floydada/ATSF (30 was the eastbound connection to St Louis, the other eastbound out of Floydada was 36, running to Oklahoma City.)
I checked a 1958 Official Guide, and the only Floydada trains were 437 from St Louis, and 30 to St Louis.
Thank you for clearing that up, Ted. The author seems to have conflated trains 37 and 437 with the later QLA and BTX.
Update time! While browsing the Conrail freight schedules on Multimodalways, I discovered that - contrary to what I stated earlier in this thread - Conrail did operate a run-through train with the Frisco. Included in Conrail's list of through freight trains for 1 January 1979 is train INFR (Indianapolis-Frisco), with an effective date of 9 June 1978. INFR originated at Big Four Yard in Avon and terminated at Frisco's 23rd Street Yard in East St. Louis. Conrail doesn't list an equivalent train from Conway Yard, instead opting to forward any Frisco-bound traffic from Conway Yard on train PIAS (Pittsburgh-Alton & Southern), which also included traffic from Conway Yard destined for the Cotton Belt and Missouri Pacific.
That train from Indianapolis probably carried a lot of auto parts. The documents said to include St. Louis cars and Valley Park cars. ( in case you don’t know, Chrysler had an assembly plant in Valley Park, MO ).
As I recall, Conrail and its predecessors operated a number of trains from Big Four Yard dedicated to forwarding auto parts traffic to its connections at East St. Louis. I know Cotton Belt handled auto parts traffic to the GM plants in Southern California and MoPac handled auto parts traffic to the GM plant in Arlington.
Anyone know if UP ever sent their U25B's in pool service? From what I can find, UP retired all of their U25B's in 1972, so the window of opportunity is fairly short.
I can't say for certain, but I wouldn't be surprised if some U25Bs found their way onto Frisco rails in pool service. "Officially," Union Pacific's designated pool power during the late 1960s and early 1970s were its GP30s; in practice, Uncle Pete would use whatever locomotives it had on hand in pool service, including its double diesels!
I'll go ahead and ask the "old timers" on the Classic-UP group if they know of any instances of U25Bs being used in pool service, especially with the Frisco.
The big UP diesels are another interesting subject. I doubt UP would have wanted to let them off their property and I doubt the Frisco would have wanted them on theirs. However, there is proof that UP put Frisco power in with the big diesels on UP rails.
You'd be surprised. There are documented instances of DD35s straying into pool service, including a DD35 that made it onto Pennsy rails through the UP-CB&Q-PRR pool.
I asked the Classic-UP group whether or not Union Pacific’s U25Bs ever operated on Frisco rails in pool service and received the following information:
Generally, Union Pacific used its GP35s on NWF and FSE during the mid-to-late 1960s. According to Union Pacific’s 31 August 1968 power assignment report, Uncle Pete had a total of eight GP35s assigned to pool service with the Frisco.
Union Pacific was not satisfied with the performance of its U25Bs. The same power assignment report lists 12 U25Bs as stored and only four active as switch engines at Pocatello, Idaho.
Union Pacific’s U25Bs did operate in run-through service with the Illinois Central to Chicago but were not assigned to the Frisco pool.
According to the user who gave me this information, “it wouldn’t have been common to see a UP U25B on SLSF. If it happened at all, it was most likely done only for a short time, or if no other power was available. I’m not aware of any written record or photo of the UP U25Bs operating on SLSF, but it certainly could have happened.”
Thanks for digging up that info.
The conclusion of it could have happened is good enough for me to pre-order a UP U25B from rapido to go with my Frisco units.
Check out Greg Stout’s Frisco In Color-volume 2 (page 91). There’s a photo of UP high nose U25b on a Frisco freight in 1969. Larry F.
Good catch Larry. I will have to go find that when I get a chance. I have Greg's collection of slides, if I can find that slide, I'll scan it and upload it for this thread.
Those slide have all been pretty much sorted. Look in the binder where the GE units are archived.
Separate names with a comma.