Howdy, John is correct about deducting Frisco.org donations from taxes. We would have to incorporate, have a board of directors, meetings, minutes, etc. to request classification as a 501c3 organizations. While that's not easy, it can be done. Best, mike
I hope that this discussion is not closed or that I am re-stirring the pot of worms. The posts on this subject seem to be mainly from the movers and shakers of Frisco.org with only a few "common" members pitching in. I will try to respond to two different posts in one post. I am the son and grandson of Frisco retirees. When my dad retired I asked him for copies of any blank forms, etc. Plus, I have three Lettering and Painting drawings (20" x 68") from the Engineering Department. My sons are not interested. Those documents (including the telex recieved in Birmingham announcing the merger) need a home where they will be preserved. It needs to be a 401(c)3 home so that I, and others, can at least deduct the postage. I sent all my BN and BNSF stuff to the Friends of the BN, who sent me receipt letters. Second item. "The majority of former Frisco employees and their families plus the general public simply do not know about this sort of website and are not personally interested in using it, but they would be more inclined to give items or ask questions to a historical society that has a permanent address and people that can be talked too one on one." My dad is 87. He cannot understand the internet, let alone use it even if he was interested in the Frisco. Every Frisco living retiree should get a mailing soliciting donations and offering tax free assistance in doing so. So I vote yes. David Gaines
I've done both the yearly donations on Trainboard as well as gone to a 5 dollar-per-month option thru PayPal. We also had a fundrasing drive for new software upgrades from member donations as well. I personally have no problem contributing a couple of bucks every month toward covering costs on both sites. Not saying this to toot my own horn, but to let you know I do this because I know squat about software, and I would rather it be in the hands of folks who know what they're doing. For this, I appreciate deeply what Mike and Charlie have done. But I'm also aware that some of this stuff costs money, and no way should we have the expenses handled solely by either one of these gentlemen. As one of the slogans on Trainboard says, "Many hands make light work". As far as a Historical Society, I'm still trying to think this out in my mind. I joined the FMIG in 1984 when Charlie Dischinger was sending out the newsletters, and was also a Frisco Folk when Alan Schmidt had the museum open. Nowadays we have this website and Richard Napper's "Meteor" online newsletter, plus the occasional gatherings here & there. We have some of the greatest folks around on this site who either model the Frisco or collect Frisco railroadiana (or do both), and they are more than willing to share their work with others. If anything, we need to work on more frequent meetings of Friscophiles. Annual would be nice, instead of chance meetings at train shows. It's been a very long time since I last attended an FMIG convention, and that was in 1987 in Eureka Springs. Hmm, wonder if I just argued myself into a "No" vote?
Re: Second Annual Frisco Convention Registration is Open - INFO UPDATE! I like Keith's comment regarding boosting attendance at future events. It seems that the majority of "conversation" on this site is model railroader oriented and at least this past convention, very "model railroader" focused (I was a member of this site for several years before it dawned on me what a P2K was). While I have some models, I am not a model railroader. My interest is focused on the prototype, collecting memorabilia, and history of the Frisco and all other associated roads that eventually made up the Frisco. I would guess there are a good number of others that fall into the same category as myself. All of us associated with this web site have one thing in common, a passion for the Frisco Railway. With that said, I would support a Historical Society. As discussed in previous posts, there are strong pros and cons to move in this direction, but I feel the pros far out weigh the cons. While there has been at least one well intentioned attempt of a Frisco Museum, serious consideration should be given to some sort of central repository of Frisco historically related items/documents. I am also a member of the Katy Railroad Historical Society. This group puts out a wonderful color publication every quarter plus a calendar. Would love to see something similar with this group. Jeff Cooney, Lindsay, TX
Re: Second Annual Frisco Convention Registration is Open - INFO UPDATE! Jeff, first, thanks for taking the time to post your comments. The group that was at the 2010 convention universally want to have the (for a lack of a better word) historians intimately involved in this site and in future conventions. The dilemma that we find is how to get more of everyone pulled into the greater fold of Frisco aficionados that congregate currently through this forum unless the historians come to this forum to share or ask questions in the first place. The historians are the ones that make modeling worthwhile; they are the source of factual information that make the models a reflection of the great railroad we all love. We all want to preserve as many of the historical documents, etc that we can but unless we find some way for all of us to pull together, it will be a lost cause. How can we make the connection that allows us to see our common goal come to fruition? This will be the discussion that will begin to unfold in another thread to come soon.
I wouldn't be for any kind of "assessment" at all. Any "fees" should be voluntary. As for a "historical society" as such, here are my thoughts on that posted some time back: "We already HAVE a "Frisco Historical (and Technical) Society." On this forum there are a couple of dozen (Likely even more) modelers, historians and trivia buffs forming an incredible bank of knowledge of the Frisco from every era and aspect of the railroad. And here, everyone is is virtually equal, no one person with a greater voice than another. A natural checkmate on any overbearing or overreaching individual--A very democratic arrangement indeed. If there were a "society" formed with officers, minutes, committees, by-laws and all the associated trappings, the "power," like it or not, would go from distributed among many to being centralized among just a few. Let's keep it "This Way!" It's just fine as is--when someone has a question about steam, diesels, passenger trains, the latest Atlas or Athearn model, freight car brake rigging, scenery modeling, DCC etc. etc. etc., there's someone at the ready with the answer--And we don't have to elect officers, form committees or be governed by "Roberts' Rules Of Order!" Just my two cents... Tom
Let's keep it "This Way!" It's just fine as is--when someone has a question about steam, diesels, passenger trains, the latest Atlas or Athearn model, freight car brake rigging, scenery modeling, DCC etc. etc. etc., there's someone at the ready with the answer--And we don't have to elect officers, form committees or be governed by "Roberts' Rules Of Order!" Just my two cents... Tom[/QUOTE] I couldn't agree more, to throw in my 2 cents worth also. Bob Wintle
I couldn't agree more, to throw in my 2 cents worth also. Bob Wintle[/QUOTE] Howdy Bob, I agree that we don't need Roberts Rules at this point. Many terrific ideas came from the meeting and simple is good came through loud and clear. Changing our image is not a bad thing. Indeed, we are not just a place for modelers, but for all Frisco folk. We'll focus on that in the near term. Best, mike
Howdy Tom, Thanks for the comments. I think they echo the will of the folks that were at the convention. The main point the group expressed was that there is a huge group of folks who love the Frisco that don't feel welcome in the FRISCrg community. That group is the non-modeling folks. By making sure FRISCrg seems like a comfortable place for them to socialize and share information, we will all benefit. Once again, Robert's Rules are irrelevant at this time. It would be nice to be popular enough, rich enough, and in demand enough to need Robert's to guide our leadership activities, but we are a long ways from that point. All we want to do is have some fun by sharing our passion for the Frisco, either through personal experiences, our relatives, or our models. We can do that with what we are hoping to do. I'll put that forward in the next few days. First, I need to mow the lawn and catch my breath from the wonderful convention. Best regards, mike
After re-reading this thread, and thinking about the discussions we had at our last get-together, the one thing that comes to my mind is at the very least we could have an online version of the late William Bain's book "Frisco Folks", in which we have former Frisco employees tell their stories of working on the railroad, be it in train service, maintenance of way, station agent, dispatcher, or whatever. While we're all getting along in years (I felt like the youngest person in Lenexa this past weekend, and I'm only 53), there are an awful lot of retirees who are up there in years, and sadly more are becoming too ill or are passing on. As a model railroader and railfan, I appreciate the history behind the stories told by the retirees, as they can in themselves become valuable resources in modelint the Frisco. Because let's face it- as Frisco modelers, most of us ARE modeling history. As for the age of those who run the site, none of us are guaranteed the next few seconds, much less the next few years. Gathering and compiling data on the history of the Frisco has been done for years on an individual (and semi-organized- I remember the Frisco Museum) basis. As I said earlier, many hands make light work. Were it come to a vote for aoms sort of historical society, or at least a push for the historical side of the Frisco in order to get the retired rails involved, I vote "yes". I believe we have to adapt and change somewhat, or run the risk of failure. I am one of the most laid-back folks around. Shoot, I don't even know what OCD means . But, I DO realize we have to make whatever change is needed to grow and be more recognized.
Some of the posts in this thread seem to group some members as modelers and some as historians. Until last Saturday I had never thought of us in terms of subgroups. It made me wonder what I am. I model but I do historical research in order to model accurately. Mark and I did a lot of research when we commissioned the AMB wood SLSF caboose. Don Wirth has a ton of great photos and information AND he make some of the most beautiful SLSF steam engines and structures I have ever seen. Brad Slone does tons of research in all his models. He could talk for hours on the history of his models. I wonder what group I fit into? ANSWER: I don't see subgroups. I see Frisco fans who happen to enjoy some, several or all of the facets of the Frisco. I have not heard of anyone who did not come to the meet because it was limited to modelers so if anyone has information to that affect I would appreciate knowing more about it. We need to know who was disinfranchised and why they felt left out. This is the only way to correct any misconceptions among the members. Otherwise any attempt improve things will be futile. It was the planning team's intent to include everyone which is why some of the clinics were prototype based (Furlong, Hoover, part of Robinson's). I did hear from several members who PM'd me indicating they had scheduling conflicts, family issues, etc. I heard nothing from the supposed "historian" group. If you know who belongs in this group, please advise. I disagree with the notion that the website is a "modelers" site (based on the number of posts) given the large number of posts in the "Real Frisco" section, especially all the work done to locate surviving Frisco equipment. It would be very interesting to know the number of posts in both the modeling and real Frisco sites. Since I have joined my guess is that there is significantly more activity in the "real" side. Bottom Line: This site is what the members make it. If some people want more history, they should be finding it and posting it. We would love to see their posts. Honest. What do you think?
Just did a quick analysis of the number of posts on the following main categories as of 9-15-10 Time 2206 Real Frisco 12,418 posts 63% of total Frisco Modeling 7,221 posts 37% of total Total Posts 19639 From this analysis one could conclude that it is a historical website. I like history. I like models. I like paperwork. I like memorabilia. I like slides/photos. I like people.
Hey Rick--I'm not an HO modeler and didn't attend the convention and you would probably say I'm more of a "railfan" than a modeler (I do model in N scale), but I don't feel particularly "disenfranchised." I don't think someone who didn't attend the convention should be sitting around feeling all "misty" about being left out. I think there's plenty for all here on this chat board and the folks with similar interests are naturally going to gravitate together and those who have different interests are free to participate or not. Because everyone doesn't have the same exact interest, everyone need not be included in each and every activity organized. Just because this guy doesn't like exactly what this other guy likes, doesn't mean he cares any less for the 'ol SL and SF. Tom
The late Rev. Terry Murray from here in Wichita had "Frisco Folks" republished several years ago in paperback form. His good friend Larry Parrish is helping his wife sell his RR related assets and had copies at KC that he was selling for a great price. I am leaving town for a couple of days, but upon my return I will get with Larry and see if we can set up a way for anyone who wants a copy to get one at a great price. Stay tuned for more info!
One of the people who feels that this site is more model focused has already posted in this thread, please go back two days ago and read Jeff Cooneys post. He knows of several people who have the same impression and I know of several in my area who have the same thought. One of them is Bob King of Oronogo. Bob has done much research on the Frisco in the four state area but Bob is not a public speaker. He would be willing to answer questions when asked but I don't think you will be able to get him to give a clinic. Two other people who would be good additions to any historical group but who do not own computers are Ron Morgan of Pittsburg and Don Keeney of Fort Scott. Ron's family worked for the Frisco and Don has a large collection of Frisco china and memorabilia. I also know that Louis Greisemier and John Sanders of Springfield would make great additions to a Frisco Historical group. Gordon Garrett of Springfield also has a great deal of knowledge of the Frisco, he was formerly on the board of the Frisco Museum, but Gordon also does not own a computer. We need to think of a way to involve these people in this group, whether it be a formal historical society or more conventions and get togethers. I'm hoping to get these folks to be involved in next years convention if we can have it in Springfield. If we keep building are base the more we can insure the future of this endeavor. John Chambers
John Chambers makes a valid point that we need to address concerning people (mainly historians) who don't have a computer but may like to be involved. This is an issue that we need to address. Having said that for the purpose of planning for future festivals, I would like to put my perspective on the one we just had. First of all, I think this is a matter of perspective and marketing. If one looks at the festival from the historical or prototypical standpoint, this is what they might conclude: (1) The operating session at Rick's on Friday night was very casual and his layout could be viewed and presented as an accurate representation of a large portion of the real Frisco as it appeared in the mid 1970's. He also has a large collection of drawings, track charts, photos, etc. some of which are displayed in a hallway with Museum type lighting. Could it be viewed and protrayed as a Museum? In my opinion, absolutely yes! I might add that there are other Frisco layouts including Jim Senese's in Tulsa and Ron William's in Springfield that could be protrayed in the same manner. (2) This has already been touched on, but most of the clinics on Saturday were of a prototypical nature. Both mine and Patrick Furlong's were definately prototypically oriented. Keith's presentation was historically based as well with some wonderful scenes of the area he was modeling and the title could have been tweaked a little to make it more palatable to a historian's viewpoint. Granted Mike's operating clinc, Richard's decoder clinic, and Gary's F-Unit conversion clinic were modeler oriented. By merely switching either mine or Patrick's to a different time slot would have give the prototype oriented person a full day of history. (3) The excellent West Bottoms tour conducted by Mark Davidson was about as prototypically and historical oriented as anything could be including dinner at a famous Frisco employee haunt. (4) The slide show by John and others was prototypically oriented, period. (5) The train ride on Sunday was also a prototypical and historical activity. (6) I might add the the day planned for the ladie's was different, unique, and well-received. It's all a matter of perception and how something is presented. Look back through the thread about the convention and you will realize that the committee did a fantastic job of telling everyone what to expect in every activity with the possible exception of protraying Rick's layout ( Item # 1) in a different maner. If there is anything to be learned for future events, it's just that, how it's presented. Respectfully submitted:
I bought a copy of that very book at the convention, and am eagerly reading it now. Due to limited funds (remodeling a house will do that to you), I regret I wasn't able to take better advantage of what else Larry had on the swap tables, but perhaps he and the Murray family will offer that for sale here in the Swap Meet section, or at least on hoyardsale.com
John, Thanks for your response to my request for more information regarding people who did not come to this years Frisco Convention. I think we now have some info we can act on. I read Jeff Cooney's post before posting my response yesterday. I did not see anything in his post that indicated he was not coming due to the content of the convention. He indicated that he thought the past meet was model focused and the website was model focused but he did not cite that as a reason for not coming. Maybe Jeff can tell us. What I did hear from a lot of people is bad timing, sports conflicts, family obligations, etc. Those things will be difficult, if not impossible, to overcome. If there are some who perceive this site as more modeling than prototype, they can simply count the posts like I did yesterday. With almost 2/3 of the posts falling under the prototype, it's difficult to justify the position that this is a model focused site. It's not even close. It is my hope that those reading this post with the model focus perception, check out the numbers (not my numbers) and change their perception to match the facts. Regarding the meet last year, it is true that we had two modeling clinics (the third one is escaping me for some reason), models for show and models at the swap tables. However, we also had several hours of prototype slides and a prototype train ride to a prototype museum and back. I still remember that Chicken Annies chicken and I classify that as "prototype." If I had to tally up the time spent on models and the time spent on prototype I would estimate 50/50 or 55/45 prototype. In addition, my swap table had some prototype items for sale. As hard as I try, I'm just not able to agree that the meet in Pittsburg was model focused. Lucky for me, I love it all. If next year's meet is going to be held where I think it is, few locations could be more prototypical that than location. Regarding those railfan/historians without computers (Morgan, Keeney, Gordon, King), that does present a challenge but not a huge problem. This is where people who know them can invite them. I would have invited them but I did not know these gentlemen existed until you mentioned their names. My recommendation is that those on the website invite those not on the website. Sounds simple but I bet it would work, at least the inviting part. Posting the info in a hobby store would probably not work. If there is some place railfan/historians frequent, we could provide a flyer but I don't know what common place railfans/historians go to (like a hobby store) and could receive this type of communication. Did you happen to mention this meet to them? BTW I would love to see a memorabilia clinic, especially on railroad china and silver because I am really dumb in these areas. Regarding Sanders and Griesemer, are they not on the website already? If not, I would be very surprised if Ron Williams, Ron White or Ray Wells (all who attended this year's meet) did not inform them of the meet. Louis is a N scale modeler and has a vast memorabilia collection on the Frisco so he is on both sides of the perceived fence. I have not heard from John in a while but I will not presume to know why he or Louis did not come. I am sure they have their reasons that are far away from their affection for the Frisco. I believe it is important for all fans of the Frisco to support each other as much as we can. We also need to communicate both on and off this website to keep everyone informed. It will only be as good as we make it. What do the other members think?
Rick, I think you summarized my feelings much more concisely than I could have done! For me, timing was everything. Even without a pending house sale/move (which was absorbing my time during the 2010 convention), we had too many activities going on with my kids. I guess I do not see the modeler/collector-historian dichotomy; it has always appeared to be a symbiotic relationship. As a modeler, I need the knowledge possessed by collectors-historians in order to know that I'm accurately modeling the whole Frisco picture. At the same time, while some historians are not active modelers, any with whom I've ever spoken seem to appreciate the fact that there are modelers who are striving to preserve the SL-SF in miniature and have always bent over backwards to assist my efforts.
I agree. A person would not model the Frisco without an original interest in the railroad as their foundation, especially since it is a fallen flag. Modeling is the second level of interest in the Frisco. It's just that some people would rather talk (on the forum) about modeling since they are actively doing it. Some people are conducting research but the majority of people absorb that knowledge rather than contribute to producing it. Modeling is a way of re-living the past. There should not be any seperation of people according to their specific interest (in my opinion). The forum has seperate areas for different things and that's great. Charlie
