Just spent part of the day at Avard where the Frisco used to hand off run-through trains to the Santa Fe. My question is, how far beyond Avard did the Frisco regularly operate? I realize that on the UP run-throughs, Frisco power regularly ran all the way to North Platte, and sometimes all the way to California, Thanks! GS
There is a photo I have seen published more than once of Frisco F units at Cajon Pass sometime in the 1950s. Remember also that the handoff point was originally at Floydada, TX, the western end of the QA&P, so those F units came to the Santa Fe by way of the QA&P. On the other end of the transcontinental pools, I have seen many photos of Frisco power at Hamlet, NC on the SCL. Paul
Paul, First of all, thank you for recognizing and confirming the QA&P was a part of the Frisco. Some folks think that when the Frisco abolished the QA&P it was a better Frisco RR. We, the Frisco/QA&P gave up route miles which benefited no one on the SL-SF or QA&P, but wholly, benefited the AT&SF demands for more route mile tonnage revenue. Basically no one on the AT&SF wanted to see a profitable QA&P. But the basic trackage between Floydada and the west coast remains intact. Just the QA&P is gone. I understand the short-sighted views of RR management. We will as a people in the US, reap these benefits of these short-sighted visions, for generations to come. The Milwaukee Road is a great comparison (although obviously much bigger), but we should have never given any infrastructure in the form of a rail network up. Just My opinion. But as of my last trip down to the QA&P, it still would have been quicker to take the QA&P "The Flash" to Floydada than the current routing. I wish some people, would spend a little time remembering some of the little RR's that made the SL-SF an un-apologetic intrastate contender.
One of my great railroad memories was during the time the Frisco and Santa Fe were running a pool service train about 1967. I was waiting for the red crossing signal near Broadway and Commercial in Springfield. Soon a perfectly matched six unit Santa Fe F-7 A-B-B-B-B-A set came rolling by toward the west yards. Each unit was freshly washed (maybe waxed too??) and the lead engine had the most melodious diesel air horns I believe I ever heard. Forgive me if you've heard this before I think I once posted a version of this vignette in the dim and distant past. Tom G.
Just a bit about the ATSF-Frisco run-through service might be found in this thread. It would seem that the Frisco units were working all the way through to California. The real question might be how far east did the ATSF units work on the Frisco. I have a copy of the Trains Magazine photo spread described in this thread. http://www.frisco.org/shipit/index.php?threads/slsf-gp-20s.1807/#post-10762 U-Boats over Cajon. http://www.frisco.org/shipit/index.php?threads/slsf-800-831-u25b-dispositions.526/#post-3661 Early Frisco-ATSF Passenger "run-through" service. http://www.frisco.org/shipit/index.php?threads/joint-atsf-sl-sf-ptt-nov-1911.4954/#post-35575 Early Frisco-ATSF "run-through" freight service. http://www.frisco.org/shipit/index.php?threads/st-louis-and-san-fransisco.3706/#post-24821
The often seen photo of F9A SLSF 5007 leading an all Frisco F9 ABBA set was a Chard Walker photo taken near Summit on Cajon Pass, 2/21/1962. Chard used the shot in his book Chard Walker's Cajon. The train is CTX. Barstow was likely the western end of the Frisco run-through power with the ASTF. The picture is on page 176. K
To answer Greg's original question, I believe the "official" Western exchange point was Clovis, NM. Obviously, various folks took photos of the exceptions when power was grabbed to run further west. The ATSF-MP "Whirlwind" run through via Sweetwater, TX, worked the same way, with MP power turned at Clovis.
Okay, thanks to all who helped out. NOW, here's another brain-teaser: When the Baltimore & Ohio was sending B&O sleepers to Texas in the consist of the Texas Special, does anyone know specifically which cars (NOT car types) were assigned to that Pullman line? I am helping Larry Thomas of the TRRAH&TS with a project he has taken on. GS
Seems like Paw Paw was one that found its way on the Texas Special. I can't tell you what the configuration of that car is though. All that info would be found in the TRRA Texas Special book-a-zine. Sorry I can't locate my copy at the moment. Tom G. PS: Found my TS book. Some other cars were: Cacapon, Mahoning, Monocacy, Sangamon.
When I saw your question, I thought the same thing Tom Did, and consulted the TRRA books on the Texas Special and the Meteor. The Texas Special book specifically mentions, and has photographs of, B&O sleepers "Mahoning" and "Cacapon", and indicates they were assigned to Pullman Line 4087. This is on pages 70 and 71. One of the photos shows "Cacapon" being washed at San Antonio, TX. There is also a photo of Katy sleeper "Benjamin R. Milam" in the National Limited at Washington D.C. Page 62 of the Meteor book has a photo of heavyweight "Lantern Tower" which was assigned to the Meteor. There's also a photo of "Capacon" here, but it doesn't show the assigned cars. Page 158 of the same book lists the two Pullman lines involved. The heavyweight line was 4080 and had "Lantern Tower", "Hill Tower", "Gothic Tower", "Norman Tower", and "Magdalen Tower" as the regularly assigned cars. This would be between 1946 and 1948. Line 4086 was the lightweight line, but all it says about car assignments is that it was a 4 car pool. Page 57 of Steve Gohen's "Miss Katy in the Lone Star State" has a photo of the Texas Special going through the wash rack at San Antonio. This shows part of a B&O lightweight car with a name ending in "OCACY". I found a thread on the Classic Trains magazine forum that lists the names of the B&O lightweight sleepers. See http://cs.trains.com/ctr/f/3/t/54069.aspx. The only name for a 14-4 matching the one in the book is "MONOCACY", so that is likely the car. I do not know if that list is exhaustive. All the other photos I've seen that might give us a clue are distant shots, and you can't read car names. Paul
Greg, I can't remember for certain, but the book Night Trains: The Pullman System in the Golden Years of American Rail Travel by Peter Maiken has scads of information in the back. I *think* it might include some specific car numbers/names? If you don't have access to a copy, let me know and I'll find mine in the workshop library at home and see if it'll be any help. Best Regards,
I've been told, some time ago by Ken McElreath, I believe, that Cacapon is likely the B&O blue & gray Pullman, seventh car back from the two E's, in the picture of SLSF 2008 pulling the Texas Special out of Dallas in Marre/Sommers Frisco in Color (Vol 1), page 40. K
Greg, Been a little slow in reply - sorry about that. I'm just including the B&O information that he lists. He further indicates that "Trains are assumed to be within the state under which they are listed at midnight on a typical Sunday," and utilizes schedule and consist information from the March 1952 issue of the Official Guide of the Railways. Not sure if you're looking for a particular year, or in what years B&O routed cars via Nos. 1/2, but this provides something. I've slimmed his data down to included B&O routing as requested: Train No. 1 - Texas Special St. Louis to San Antonio 8 Miles east of Neosho (SL-SF) WASHINGTON TO SAN ANTONIO [Car] 12 - 14 r - 4 dbr B&O Train 1 - Washington (6:30 pm Sat) to St. Louis (1:00 pm Sun) St. Louis (5:30 pm) to San Antonio (1:55 pm Mon) Train No. 2 - Texas Special San Antonio to St. Louis 14 miles north of Wagoner, OK (MKT) SAN ANTONIO TO WASHINGTON [Car] 22 - 14 r - 4 br San Antonio (12:01pm Sun) to St. Louis (8:10am Mon.) B&O Train 2 - St. Louis (10:05am Mon) to Washington (7:25am Tue) Hopefully this provides what is desired. Best Regards,
