Classic Trains Summer 2015; Frisco 2006 The Malfunctioning Mallet

Discussion in '2-8-8-2 Mallet' started by Karl, Jun 22, 2015.

  1. palallin

    palallin Member

    I have been doing some reading in the Withun book about steam loco development and came across an interesting engineering datum developed in the 'teens by Cole. Apparently, firebox evaporating area is almost 3 (2.7, to be precise) times as effective as flue heating area. Flue area is good for 10 lbs of steam per square foot per hour; firebox area is good for 27 lbs per square foot over the same period. I have not yet discovered whether a figure exists for combustion chamber evaporative area, which one would imagine is somewhere between those two. Firebox evaporative area is not a linear function of grate area: a large grate suggests a large evaporative area, but the height of the sides of the box is a variable not dependent upon grate area. Certainly, a large grate are DOES imply a large crownsheet area. In other words, total evaporative surface is not enough: it has to be the right ratio of kinds of evaporative surface.

    Anyway, this pair of constants in the HP equation helps to clarify why and in what proportion) the ratio of firebox to flue evaporative area is crucial to the power of the locomotive.

    Whether or not the 2001s had a problem in this respect is not yet clear to me, but it was well understood by the engineers (building types, not running types) of the time why many drag freight era engines were not performing adequately. Superheat helped to address the problem; super power (i.e. enlarged fireboxes with much greater evaporative surface are) helped more. Enter Lima, Stage left.
    mountaincreekar likes this.
  2. A good railroad Design Engineering Department needed a good Energy Conversion Engineer and
    not just a mechanics Mechanical Engineer. Also not a Project Manager that just goes for "lowest bid".

    The cost of coal or oil needs, and cost of number of watering stations required needed to be part of
    the bidding process before a purchase order was issued.

  3. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Supporter

    The last couple of weeks have been quite hectic. BHP has completed the sale of all of its shale assets. I have been a part of the transition team, and I have been engaged with that process. The Petroleum business, shed of its shale assets, re-organized, and laid-off a large numbers of its staff. Technology (where I am) saw its support role diminished, and during the past two weeks executed its re-org plan. Last summer, we were a campus of about 1800 people; by the end of July, we will be a campus of about 800. Last week I had my chat with my boss and an HR rep, and I was offered a role (lateral move) in the Petroleum. Voluntary requests for severance were not taken. This move makes me very happy, and I will be working with some good folks. I am also in the middle of writing a paper for a conference, and will be happy when the conference will be over, and the changes at work are in place.

    ...back to the Mallets. The 2001-class locomotives were delivered as soaks and as hand-bombers. The addition of Street stoker, solved the firing rate issue, but they were unreliable and required some disassembly to clear obstructions. The auger stokers completed the solution. Increased tender capacities, improved ranged.

    As implied by its name, the combustion chamber allowed more complete consumption of the fuel, and further heated the gases coming from the burning coal.

    The Frisco replaced the Mallets, with another drag-era, albeit "faster" locomotive, the spot class 2-10-2's. The coming of the 4000-class 2-8-2's signaled the end of the drag era on the Frisco.

    street_stoker_backhead.JPG street_stoker_longitudinal_boiler_section.JPG
  4. Karl,
    I wish the best for you, including your employment new adventures.
    Keep up your health with all these sporadic events in your life.

    I notice the patent was during ~ WWII
    I wonder how that large war impacted the railroads?

    I cannot understand how you have such a large, well organized filing system
    that is so quickly accessed?

    I will just have to keep wondering. Take care,

    Good luck,

  5. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Supporter

    The creation of the USRA during the Great War had a major impact on US railroads. They were both good and bad. Much has been written about this period. For example, I have read the the USRA help to kill the Colorado Midland. On the other hand, development of the USRA standard locomotive designs were a good thing.

    My filing system not well organized.
    Joe Lovett and Ozarktraveler like this.
  6. Coonskin

    Coonskin Member

    I think you can throw the Missouri & North Arkansas into the "USRA bad" category. I think I recall reading in Mr. Fair's book that the USRA's intervention into the M&NA created issues once they released the line.

    Ozarktraveler likes this.
  7. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Supporter

    Dr Fair .... Jim Fair was a PhD Chemical Engineer.
    Ozarktraveler likes this.
  8. Ken, you pushed my doorbell,

    Picture of our Jim Fair.

    It sure would be nice if we could have a phone call from Jim
    about some branch route that should of been constructed
    to Rush Zinc Mine. or Is that small gauge still
    hauling out lime--- or

    What can we do to have better internials within a
    300' distillation tower.

    He was the world's expert about distillation/fractionations.

    ~~~~ Jim was always fun! ~~~~
    As a boy he road the M&nA across Arkansas to stay with is grandparents for the summer.
    ~~~~ 90 years old October 11, 2010 ~~~~
    Monsanto Company ~ 33 years,
    In 1979, he shifted to academia,
    joining the University of Texas at Austin
    School of Chemical Engineering,
    where he founded the Separations Research Program.

    Jim worked free after retirement with PhD Chemical Engineer candidates.
    He still had an office at University of Texas at Austin,
    ~ 31 years.
    Worked for ~ 64 years
    That was his everyday smile.


    Attached Files:

    Sirfoldalot and Ozarktraveler like this.
  9. Jim's passions for fractionations & Ozark railroads.

    Jim was with Monsanto' s staff Central Engineering Department
    1965 - 1979. He was one of CED's Directors.
    Already the World's expert about fractionations.
    It was his research that kept the fractionation technologies
    always getting better.

    "What can we do to have better internials within a
    a 300' distillation tower?".... those towers could sway in
    storm's strong winds.
    The liquid on tower internal trays would not keep a
    level. The gas trough some tray orifices would bypass the liquid

    destroying the fractionation process.
    Why did Jim take long weekends? Going to Eureka Springs, he did
    research to write his book.

    1990 - 2001
    At Monsanto and it's spun off Solutia

    I was associate representative to
    Fractionations Research, Inc. which Jim founded.
    The other was a chemical engineer.
    I was the mechanical engineer.

    This phone call was about 1998.
    "Is that small gauge still

    hauling out lime?"

    ~2000, he wished for me to
    look into a shade of paint.
    ~ Tucson red (~1300)

    2001 I retired from Monsanto's spun off Solutia.

    This phone call was ~ 2004;
    to be looked into, "a
    branch route? .... that perhaps could have
    been constructed to Rush Zinc Mine".

    I moved to Arkansas in 2006 which was very hectic....
    new phone number changed several times.
    We never talked again. He was to have 4 more years of his fun.

    Those styles were like he used with his grad students.

    His work passions were always fun for him (~64 years).
    He was a "People" person. Jim was a "team" person also.

    If there is a distillation towers in heaven, he is there
    if there is also a tank car to haul the refined product away.
    He is smiling.

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  10. klrwhizkid

    klrwhizkid Administrator Staff Member Administrator Supporter

    But your brain is, for sure!
  11. gna

    gna Member Supporter

    It looks like the patent was applied for in 1910 and granted in 1915, well before the US was involved in WWI.
    Sirfoldalot likes this.
  12. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Supporter

    My wife, who I met at Monsanto, worked in Dr Jim Fair's Engineering Technology group in CED. He was a great guy as has been noted. Our division had a product at Chocolate Bayou that required five distillation columns. Worked with him and his people to design, and start up, those big guys in 1964-1965. When I left on a leave of absence to go to ChE graduate school at Purdue, Jim was upset with me as I also had an offer from Michigan, his school. Tried to explain to him Purdue gave me a better deal - got a student assistant position with Dr J Henry Rushton, a well known pioneer in the design of mixing systems. Purdue also paid more, but I couldn't have gone wrong with either ChE school.
    After one full year and one added summer in West Lafayette, Indiana, we returned to Creve Coeur with the following things: a Pontiac LeMans that was getting rusty, a MS-ChE degree from Purdue, a new baby boy (Kurt), and an empty bank account. I even had to sell my coin collection, except for the nickels, which I still have. Was time to get back to work and earn some $$$!
    Did have some time there to do some train watching - Monon (became a fan), Wabash, and New York Central.
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  13. Thanks for sharing Karl.

    What would be a great picture would be a Mallet going across one of those Alabama swing bridges.
    All the pic s I have seen do not show any trains on them.
    I like to study all the different designs of the roller/wheel and gear systems.
    I do not think that any structural engineers ever use any design more than once.
    Sirfoldalot and Joe Lovett like this.

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