I have long been a fan of Athearn products, and have trusted their reliability while appreciating their affordability. However, I have run into an annoying issue with a couple of recent RTR locomotives that I purchased. The locomotives are GP35 #717 and SD45 #911. I purchased the GP35 in September 2007, and about a year or so later, it developed a terrible grinding sound when the power pack (standard DC) reached about 40% power. If I run the locomotive at 100% power for a few minutes, it will work itself out, but after letting it rest for a moment or two, it's back at it. Last night, I caught the SD45 making the same noise for a few moments, again at about 40% power. I applied more power, and the noise ceased and it ran fine for the rest of the evening. But I'm afraid it's going to get as bad as the GP35. And I haven't even had it a full year. I've taken both apart and cannot find anything visibly wrong. Both also lose considerable speed when this happens. I would like to know if anyone else has had the same problem with Athearn RTR's, and more importantly, if anyone knows exactly what the problem is and how it can be corrected. Thanks, Pat Moreland Union Mo.
Re: Athearn Woes I have the same loco's (different numbers) and the GP35 is horrible. The SD45 makes noise but its not as bad
Re: Athearn Woes The first thing I would check would be the axle gears. I am sure you will see a crack in one or more of them running the length of the axle. The motors in the RTR are just not very quiet or smooth running i=on DCC in my Opinion. If you are running DC check the axles. Bob Wintle MMR
Re: Athearn Woes My first guess is the quality of the grease that lubricates the worm gear bushings in the trucks. The symptoms you describe are in line with a grease that has high viscosity until it warms up. The shaft can't rotate smoothly in the bushing and instead wobbles around inside unitl the grease softens. This will ultimately result in damage to the bronze bushing. I have noticed that some of the locomotives coming from China recently have grease that appears to get really stiff with age. While I am installing a decoder in a locomotive for someone, whether it be a Soundtraxx Tsunami or just a motion decoder, I take the time to clean the existing lubricants out of the trucks. I use Labelle's 107 oil for the motor and worm bushings and their 106 Grease with PTFE in the truck gears (it is important to use a plastic-compatible grease). I have also done this to every locomotive that I have purchased in the past two years (including the Athearn GP35s and SD45s) and have not experienced the issue you describe.
Re: Athearn Woes Keith, I replaced the old with that Labble 106 to the trucks of the GP35 and it didn't help.
Re: Athearn Woes I have often wondered if the grease is plastic compatible or not and that may be what causes the plastic axle to split. It could also be that the metal part of the axles that are on the wheels are just too big for the hole in the plastic part of the axle causing it to split. (it is important to use a plastic-compatible grease). I have also found that some folks put way too mch grease in the gear tower causing it to bind. Bob Wintle MMR
Re: Athearn Woes When I was working on the GP35, after I had washed out the innards of the trucks I put one back together and it wouldn't move. Something happened to one of the wheel sets to where it would not move. If I knew what engine I put it in I would look at it again but at the time I couldn't figure it out, so I swapped it out with another that worked. I realized this weekend after repairing an AHM SW1 for someone I can fix things to where they will run, but they wont nesaserally be quiet.
Re: Athearn Woes Just to emphasize, the symptoms described would be in the worm gear or motor bushings, not in the plastic gears in the trucks. What Pat seems to be describing (a groaning, grinding, or growling) is too high of frequency to be located down in the trucks. It is important to get some low viscosity oil (107) into the motor bushings and the bushings of the worm gears. Another lubricant, Atlas' Conducta Lube-Cleaner is excellent for the motor commutator and brushes as well as the axle bushings (which are electrical contacts as well). If a truck locks up, look for something in the gears (solder blobs, insulation stripped off small wire, tiny bits of plastic shavings). When you take a truck apart, make certain you get the gears in the right location or the truck will not work.
Re: Athearn Woes Have had at least 9 of the Chinese made RTR Athearn motors go bad. Cant tell if it is the bronze bearings or the motor shaft or both. Still at a loss, as to why they are using grease to lube bronze oil-lite bearings, agreed, the grease dries up and looses what little lube factor it had for higher RPM applications, and is a contributing factor. I have started using synthetic oil lube for the motor and worm bearings. Every time the Chinese RTR motor was replaced with a BB motor, with the hex flywheels pressed on, the motor noise has gone away. I have also replaced a couple worm gear/bearing/shafts with BB ones with the hex drive shafts to get rid of a noise. Using regeared kits in these, the motors and worm gears, turn twice as fast and turn twice as many RPM's to go the same distance as stock gearing. I have dozens and dozens of BB Athearn motored locomotives that have withstood this torture for 25 years and are still going strong. Have replaced a couple RTR motors twice... To say my faith in Athearn's RTR line motors is an understatement. They have some issues here, and I hope they get a handle on it. Who knows how many thousands of defective motor/worm assemblies are out there. Who knows if Athearn recognizes there are issues. The Genesis motors have not shared the same problems for us here. Athearn has replaced every item no questions asked. But it is getting increasingly frustrating to keep having to disassemble all these to fix them. Send defective parts to; Athearn Parts/Repair 1550 Glenn Curtiss St. Carson, CA 90746 Tom H.
Re: Athearn Woes First of all, no one on here is an absolute idiot. How do I know that? You found this great forum and contribute to it! Having said that BB stands for Blue Box which for years was Athearn's standard and actually only production level. I was buying BB kits in the late '60's. The motors in the locomotives were OK but primitive compared to today's standards. I might be wrong, but most if not all production was in the United States and there were no formed plastic inserts to keep the models from breaking back then. Of course since everything was molded on there wasn't much to break. The one big exception was the stirrup steps on the freight car kits. These kits were famously called "shake-in-the-box" because literally thats what they did. I still have fond memories of being in the local hobby shop back in the mid '70's and watching the owner open a new shipment and look in every box to check for broken steps and there were always some. Glues were also primitive back then compared to todays standards so gluing them back on did little permanent good. The end of today's journey down memory lane for me!
Re: Athearn Woes Thanks, Bob. I kinda thought that, but was stumped by what seemed to be putting "old tech" in a newer product. I would have thought that the newer can type motors would have been better. But then again - The fly-by-wire newer a/c (as far as I am concerned) can't hold a candle to the old 707 that took a little muscle to manage.
Re: Athearn Woes Thanks to everyone for posting their ideas and experiences on this thread. I didn't figure I was the only one who had these issues. I just hope that Athearn corrects the problems soon. I have two other RTR's, an Amtrak P42 and a CRI&P SW1500 (I like a little diversity), and so far so good with these units. It looks like I will be sending the motors off to Athearn, and when I get them back, I will be sure to use some Labelle oil on the bushings, gears, etc. Thanks again, Pat
Re: Athearn Woes Hi, I had one Athearn locomotive which growled in one direction only. I emailed Athearn about this and their suggestion was to loosen the screws in the motor mount (the four screws in the underside of the fuel tank). This solved the problem. Apparently when completely tight the motor was slightly twisted causing the growling. Maybe this helps, maybe not. Cheers, Colin
Re: Athearn Woes This thread offers a good "clinic" on resolving modern Athearn drive train woes. Thanks to all who posted! My SLSF 717 "grinds" a bit when running forward, but not running backward. I haven't tried to fix it yet, I just run it long end forward in the consist. The other GP35 (I'm currently in Kansas and forget the number - the one on AAR-B trucks) runs fine in both directions. My three SD45's also run fine, but I haven't run them much so far. I just look at 'em and drool! Ken
Re: Athearn Woes One think I forgot to mention: The units run much better when the weather is warm. In fact, I ran both the GP35 and the SD45 tonight and neither one growled at all. My layout is in the garage, which is attached, but not climate controlled. It's usually about 15 degrees warmer in the garage than the outside air in the winter time, and about 10 or 15 degrees cooler in the summer. It was about 75 degrees here in Union this evening, so I had the door open while running. I've pretty much confined the GP35 to yard duties since it started growling (where I usually don't have to run it over 40% power), but tonight I got it out on the main, and the noise wasn't there at all, even throughout the entire power range. Like Colin and Ken said, the problem so far has mainly been while the units were running forward, or at least that's been the case with the GP35. It will usually start growling at about 75% power in reverse, however. Strange, tempermental little beasts. I think I'll try Colin's suggestion first and loosen the screws on the bottom of the fuel tank and go from there. Regardless, I'll go with Labelle oil from now on, whether I have to get new motors or not. Pat Moreland, Union Mo.
Re: Athearn Woes Pat, the revelation that temperature makes a difference definitely underscores that the grease in the bearing areas is the source of your problem. Clean the all worm gear oilite bearings and the shafts then lube with the Labelle's 107.
Re: Athearn Woes I converted from Lionel 027 to HO in 1961. Athearn´s F7 A that I purchased with Hi-F (Rubber Band) drive was wild! A Tyco F7 (they cataloged it as an F9) was a bit better but the nylon (?) gears gave up the ghost soon after I purchased it. The Athearn F7 with Hi-F power came to the rescue! It appears that Quality Control is of no concern to the model railroad manufcturers today. Only the profit end of the business is important! I don´t blame the Chinese, but the brains (?) behind the development of the products before production starts. I assume development is in the US? What good is a fantastic part replacement program if you have to deadline a locomotive with very little run time and wait for the parts? Not to mention the frustration of tear down, installation and rebuilding the locomotive? If a kid receives a starter set to introduce him to model railroading as a hobby and the thing breaks down soon after putting it into service it most likely will get tossed in the trash and he or she will invest in computer games and never give model railroading another thought the rest of his or her life. Back in 1962 after my parents had moved the family back to Tampa, Florida, for the second time, I met Chester "The Most" Holley. He ran a train shop in the Palma Ceia area. He sold trains of all gauges to all ages! He had several customers who would buy nothing but Märklin HO. True, if you ran American prototypes you had little choice other than their die cast F7 A unit. The guys would buy Athearn freight car kits (in the yellow box...gads, I am old ain´t I?) and have Chester special order the Märklin talgo Bettendorf trucks with the hook couplers and just run trains, run trains, run trains! One guy even converted his older die cast Varney F3s to Märklin power! Cool! He had a back burner project to do the same thing with Varney´s die cast NW2 diesel switcher too. High school graduation in 1964 and Uncle Sam´s invitation to join the US Army took me away from Tampa so I never knew if the NW2 project came to pass or not? Other modelers would buy the Hobbytown of Boston die cast locomotives, build same, and run them with no problems. Penn Line was another manufacturer of die cast locomotives. They were equipped with Pittman motors and if memory serves me well, metal gears. Tony Cook, the new editor of Model Railroad News magazine, has an excellent site featuring just about all of the vintage HO products or the 50s-70s. www.hoseeker.com is another site with information of all the HO product lines of this period as well. Despite the fact the modeler today has a choice of locomotives and equipment from low cost to expensive fine scale models there seems to be quite a few problems in the 21st Century that should have been left in the last! From what I continue to read, Kato still manufacturers a high quality line of locomotives from Japan. If I were to model in HO again (I am on armchair status) I would consider running everything in the way of motive power with Kato mechanisms. Older Atlas, Con-Cor, Stewart and possibly other manufacturers even used Kato´s mechanism in their products. These models can be picked up at reasonable prices even today. As to that special diesel, the "must have" from China, I can only say I would either try and buy a non-powered model from the get-go and power it with Kato or if I do purchase a powered unit, replace the guts with Kato when it gives up the ghost the first time! Frisco Folks in HO scale. Please post your thoughts regarding Kato! Andre Ming has me talked into re-entering the hobby in S scale and his S-Helper Service Showcase Line diesels run as good if not better than his HO Katos. At 65, my old old eyes can still see the trains in S. Even HO has become a problem, but that´s another story altogether. Joe Toth The Trinity River Bottoms Boomer
Re: Athearn Woes Joseph and All: Way back, I believe it to be around 1984 or so, the NMRA National Convention and Train Show was held in KC and I have vivid memories of going up to the Kato booth where, who I believe was their National Sales Manager for the US, was proudly showing everyone their brand new HO sale SD45 model. I promptly asked him why they chose not to produce the model in Frisco paint scheme as it was one of the largest (I believe 5th) and most faithful purchasers prototypically. He gave me a wonderful canned response that they had strongly considered it and it barely missed the cut. He assured me that it would be considered on future runs. To this date almost 30 years later, there has been many runs of this very popular item in their line, almost every one of them including more road numbers for the Santa Fe in several different paint schemes, and yet no Frisco version. About two years ago, Athearn came out with 3 road numbers in their regular line which features an upgraded drive train and many more road specific details that Kato would never consider doing and for a street price of under $100 to boot. They were an immediate sell-out and some modelers were immediately clamoring for more road numbers. Yes, these were made in China and yes their drive trains are still not up to Kato standards, but with today's DCC decoder technology including BEMF and silent drives, the performance gap is becoming less and less of a factor, if any at all. To me Kato is king in N scale as those modelers love the smooth drives. I'm sure that they, far more than us in HO scale would love to see a Frisco SD45. Do I sound like I am on a bash of Kato. Well, maybe or maybe not, but I always have never understood why Kato never did a Frisco SD45, especially in N scale.
