Frisco 2-8-0 Consolidation # 1266-1343

Discussion in '2-8-0 Consolidation' started by RICHCRAB, Nov 11, 2005.

  1. RICHCRAB

    RICHCRAB Guest

    Hello Frisco Folks

    Here are some photos of Frisco 2-8-0 Consolidation

    #1253, 1265, 1266, 1268, 1270, 1272, 1276, 1281, 1285, 1291, 1299, 1300, 1301, & 1305


    Enjoy, Rich

    Ship it on the Frisco!
     

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    Last edited by a moderator: May 23, 2006
  2. slsf 1340 - St. Louis Mo - Sometime in the 20's

    FM
     

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  3. RICHCRAB

    RICHCRAB Guest

    Hello Frisco Folks

    Here are some photos of Frisco 2-8-0 Consolidation

    #1307, 1309, 1312, 1317, 1319, 1321, 1324, 1327, 1328, & 1329


    Enjoy, Rich

    Ship it on the Frisco!
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: May 23, 2006
  4. RICHCRAB

    RICHCRAB Guest

    Re: Frisco 2-8-0 Consolidation # 1266-1352

    Hello Frisco Folks

    Here are some photos of Frisco 2-8-0 Consolidation

    #1331, 1332, 1335, 1337,1343, 1351, & 1352


    Enjoy, Rich

    Ship it on the Frisco!
     

    Attached Files:

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  5. John Mann

    John Mann Member

    Anyone have prints of 2-8-0 #803, (modern) # 1316, 2-10-2 #12, 4-6-2 (Pacific) # 1062 ?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2007
  6. john

    john FRISCO.org Supporter

    I didn't find this one anywhere on the website, so I thought I'd contribute it. It is cropped from a publicity photo that was taken July 1940. It has since been republished, never to my knowledge with an acknowledged source, although it appears to have been a Frisco photo.
     

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  7. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    I think I remember that photo was published in "Trains" magazine sometime in the 1960's and identified as a special move of coal trains in the 1940's (Might have been taken at Ft. Smith, Ark??)

    Tom
     
  8. gbmott

    gbmott Member

    The picture is taken in front of the Frisco depot in Fort Smith, Arkansas, and purports to depict the first three "unit trains" of smokeless home heating coal destined to St. Louis. I have it in my mind that the date is l940, but that could be wrong. Someone with more knowledge please correct me, but I recall that the city of St. Louis passed an ordinance mandating the use of "smokeless" coal (never mind that it was full of sulfur, what you can't see can't hurt you . . .) for use in home furnaces. Either the ordinance specifically mentioned the coal found south of Fort Smith or else that was the most convenient source of coal that met the specs contained in the ordinance. Either way, coal from mines on the Mansfield Branch and that area was big business on the north end of the Central Division for many years.
     
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  9. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    This photo appeared in a D. P. Morgan pictorial essay called "Stranger Than Fiction". It may be found on page 29 of the August 1967 issue of TRAINS. The photo has been reprised recently in one of the Classic Trains issues. The photo date is July 11, 1940


    Tom is correct; Ft Smith is the location. I've always wondered why the locomotives weren't carrying flags. Was this move operated as 3 separate extras or as following sections of the regular north-bound freight?

    Also of Frisco note in this issue, is a picture of number 1 making it's last passage through Springfield on May 13, 1967
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 14, 2008
  10. john

    john FRISCO.org Supporter

    Most of the coal in the photo came from the Great Western Coal Company mine on the Central Division, Arthur Sub-Division just south of Bonanza, Arkansas. It operated from the mid 1930's until 1942. ETT's list it as "Fire Chief" (the trade name the coal sold under) mp 427.0. This was an interesting mine in a number of ways, not the least of which was that the underground workings were half in Oklahoma and half in Arkansas. The entrance shaft, steel tipple and other above ground structures and the siding were (barely) in Arkansas.

    For the "unit train" the coal was mined, loaded and then "stored" in the cars. This strongly suggests a large measure of Frisco support (no demurrage) and perhaps involvement by one or more directors or company officials. When 40 loaded cars were available they were brought to Fort Smith and, after this photo was taken, made up into a single, highly publicized doubleheader train to St. Louis. In an article published in 1937 the track capacity of the mine was given as 22 empty ("above mine") and 22 loaded cars. The ETT's that I have seen show a 70 car siding. If someone has one showing a different value I would love to have a copy. Perhaps the siding was enlarged after the St. Louis "scheme" was developed? In 1937 most of the coal was going to Kansas City and other locations in Kansas and Nebraska.

    Although some coal was mined on the Mansfield Branch all along, after the Frisco quit burning it on the Central Division in the 1920's there probably wasn't enough shipped in some years to "pay the bills." I believe the Mansfield Branch survived as long as it did, only because the Frisco owned so much reserve coal there and was determined to get a return on its investment. The original Frisco subsiduary was Arkansas Coal and Mining Company (1881-1932) which, after its original charter ran out, became Arkansas Mining and Coal Company (1932-1955) and then Clarkland, Inc. Much of the AC&M (Clarkland) coal wasn't touched until deep strip mining became economical in the walking dragline days in the 1970's. In earlier years (mid 1920's on, after the Frisco quit using it) much of the coal on the Mansfield Branch was shipped from small mines on leased Central Coal & Coke property.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 14, 2008
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  11. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    Ironic that the Frisco had both coal trains pulled by oil burners (As in the photo) and solid trains of oil tankers pulled by big coal burners (4200-4300-4400-4500's) during approximately the same period.

    Tom
     
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  12. tomd6 (Tom Duggan RIP 2/11/2018)

    tomd6 (Tom Duggan RIP 2/11/2018) Passed Away February 11, 2018

    Unit Coal Train-1940 (From the March 2004 Scrambler Newsletter,Arkansas-Boston Mountains Chapter, National Railway History Society )

    Arkansas coal production originates in a narrow band that extends 60 miles east from the Okla-homa border and is about 33 miles wide. Very small surface mines still function in Johnson, Logan, and Sebastian counties. The declining fortunes of the Arkansas coal industry are evident in production totals. Year 2002 production was nearly 15,000 short tons compared to 58,000 short tons in 1982. The 1982 data pales in comparison to the 1909 peak year of production of 2.4 million tons. Today the most visible reminders of the past coal glory days are miner’s me-morials in Altus and Greenwood.

    The railroad network south of Fort Smith reflected the attraction of the coal-mining district. The Frisco’s 17.9 mile Mansfield Branch, originally built in 1887 as the Little Rock and Texas Railway from the mainline at Jenson, AR, served the coal mining towns of Hackett, Midland, and Huntington. It terminated at Mansfield on the Rock Island’s Choctaw Route. Even in the depression year of 1933, the Mansfield Branch originated 3,038 cars of freight including 2,900 cars of coal.

    The Midland Valley had Mansfield Branch track age rights from Hackett to Fort Smith and served a handful of coalmines. The Missouri Pacific served mines at Jenny Lind and Greenwood on the Fort Smith-Greenwood branch. The MP also operated the 46-mile Fort SmithParis branch that passed through an area of extensive coal mine activity at Paris.

    In April 1940, Railway Age carried a short article stating that the Frisco planned to obtain Interstate Commerce Commission (ICC) approval of a trainload rate on coal from Fort Smith, AR to St. Louis, MO. The city of St. Louis had recently passed a smokeless coal ordinance and coal from the Arkansas fields was low in both smoke and sulfur. A coal dealer in St. Louis had complained to the ICC about the unfairness of multiple car coal rates. By early June the Frisco formally requested ICC approval of a $2.00 per ton rate on coal shipments from Arkansas/Oklahoma based on trains of 2,000 tons and cars of 50 tons to St. Louis.

    The response of other railroads was immediate and negative as the prevailing coal rate was $2.75 per ton on Fort Smith-St. Louis movements. By June 15, 1940 some 22 railroads, including such coal hauling giants as the Norfolk & Western, the Pennsylvania and the Virginian, filed complaints with the ICC that the aggressive Frisco rate was a subterfuge intended to undermine individual car rates for coal. By approving the Frisco request the ICC would be cutting revenue of coal hauling railroads just recovering from the depression. Some St. Louis dealers would suffer a disadvantage as dealers buying coal shipped from Fort Smith via the Frisco had a 75 cents per ton cost advantage. The ICC considered the Frisco request. In late June 1940, the ICC allowed the $2.00 per ton trainload rate to become effective.

    The Fort Smith region was acutely interested in the Frisco trainload coal rate. The Fort Smith Times Record gave the rate dispute page one treatment along with the Battle of Britain and the fall of France. The Missouri Pacific was in an especially difficult position. The Arkansas Corporation Commission summoned the MOPAC to Little Rock to explain its inability to match the Frisco trainload rate. Mines on the Missouri Pacific’s Fort Smith-Paris branch would suffer if the Missouri Pacific did not meet the Frisco rate. The matter went to Missouri Pacific management in St. Louis.


    The MP answer on June 6, 1940 was maybe no. The MP claimed there were St. Louis switching charges of at least $1.00 per ton that made the business unattractive. Local coal operators and the Fort Smith Chamber assailed the MP its lack of a positive response. Local mine operators recalled that at one time the MP had annual purchases of up to 600,000 tons of Fort Smith region coal. Now the MP locomotives burned coal brought in from southern Illinois.

    On July 8, the Fort Smith Times Record reported that 500 men were working at Hackett, Bonanza, and Fire Chief to supply an order of 2,000 tons placed by the Binkley Coal Company of St. Louis. The paper mentioned that 2,500 family members were benefiting from the coal employment. The order was most welcome, as the area had suffered from high unemployment. The Frisco also announced that it would marshal 75-80 steel sided coal cars at Fort Smith to accommodate the new traffic. On Wednesday, July 10, the St. Louis Board of Education announced an order for an additional 16,000 tons of Fort Smith region coal furnished by the Binkley Coal Company. The Thursday paper carried a front page Headline “Coal Celebration Friday Morning”

    Friday, July 12 was a bright and clear day. At the Fort Smith Frisco depot three engines were lined up with cars of St. Louis bound coal. At 9:45 AM, the Fort Smith senior high school band assembled. It marched down Garrison Avenue accompanied by a fleet of automobiles and an escort of State, county and city police. Fort Smith factories and Frisco locomotives sounded whistles to mark the parade’s 10:00 AM arrival at the depot.

    At the depot, a program of speeches by local railroad, union, and coal and Chamber of Commerce officials took place. Mrs. Harold Alter, wife of the Fort Smith manager of the Binkley Coal Company, smashed a bottle of Mississippi River water across one engine to mark the event. The public was invited to inspect the trains. The sounding of locomotive whistles and bells competed with the firing of aerial bombs at the event end. Cars from the three trains were reassembled into one train. An airplane circled overhead as it waited to take aerial photos of the train as it passed through the Ozarks.

    At Chester, AR, the train stopped while a rear end helper engine was added to assist the train up the difficult grade to Winslow, AR. The helper cut off at Winslow and drifted, rear first, back to Chester. Later that afternoon the train, now a double header, stopped in Fayetteville, AR. A beautiful color slide exists of the double header train at the Fayetteville depot. The coal reached St. Louis on July 13, the same day the Missouri Pacific finally decided it would not match the Frisco’s $2.00 rate on trainload coal movements from Fort Smith. The MP indicated that a $2.00 rate would seriously affect rates in other coal markets and impair the railroad’s ability to make investments in track and equipment.

    The $2.00 rate of the Frisco was a likely minimal contributor to profit. The expense of a double header and the use of a helper engine must have been large. At St. Louis, there were switching charges that would further eat into the $2.00 rate. The Frisco probably posted the $2.00 per ton trainload rate as the Frisco, unlike the Missouri Pacific, served few coal mining areas. In addition the Frisco had begun to convert many divisions to oil burning locomotives in the 1920s. The Frisco was a major carrier of Oklahoma petroleum products rather than coal. The Frisco also gained a great amount of favorable publicity while the Missouri Pacific huddled under a cloud of negative publicity in Fort Smith and St. Louis.
     
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  13. john

    john FRISCO.org Supporter

    I understand that the labor (and other) problems associated with the Sebastian County, Arkansas mines helped both the Frisco and the KCS with their decisions to convert to oil in that area.

    It's been mentioned elsewhere on other threads but the KCS (and its predecessor the KCP&G) actually owned a mine spur on the Frisco at Bonanza and burned much of the coal from the mines there. (The coal went to the KCS at Poteau, OK over the Arthur sub on trackage rights sub-leased to little known third party railroads) KCS greatly cut back on using the Arkansas coal even before Frisco did. This Bonanza spur isn't mentioned much in Frisco records but is well documented in KCS and independent records.

    So, in a way, its also ironic that the KCS started out with trackage rights over this section of the Frisco and ended up - many years later - owning it.

    Do you have the ICC figures for the Mansfield Branch in the 1950's and 1960's? It looks to me like much of the coal shipped in that period was "stolen" from the Midland Valley RR and loaded on the Frisco at a "community" tipple at Doubleday, just south of Hackett. This would be Mansfield Branch coal (shipped) but it wasn't actually mined on the Mansfield Branch, just shipped from a point near the beginning of it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 14, 2008
  14. tomd6 (Tom Duggan RIP 2/11/2018)

    tomd6 (Tom Duggan RIP 2/11/2018) Passed Away February 11, 2018

    The Sebastian County, AR labor problems dated to the summer of 1914. It is my understanding the Frisco use of oil dates to the early 1920s. Oil was in abundant supply at the time and as the largest railroad in Oklahoma the Frisco perhaps was influenced to use oil.

    The KCS was using oil in 1914 as an engine lent to a small , local railroad caught fire. Perhaps the KCS proximity to the Spindletop gusher and Port Arthur area may have been relevant to th decision to use oil.Perhaps a KCS booard can identify with more accuracy the nature and extent of KCS oil usage prior to WWI.
     
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  15. john

    john FRISCO.org Supporter

    It's well known that there were plenty of good reasons to convert steam powered locomotives from coal to oil fired. I won't rehash them here. On the Frisco Central Division, one problem stood out above the others from an early date, and it was the problem they encountered in obtaining an economical, dependable coal supply.

    There were a LOT of problems in the Sebastian County and neighboring Oklahoma (UMW District 21) coal mines and labor relations was only one of them. The coal beds of western Arkansas are twisted and wet and difficult to mine. Coal from the region was almost always more expensive, sometimes a lot more, than coal from, for example, Kansas or Illinois. Of course coal could always be shipped in, but either way you had expensive coal. Railroads worried about fuel costs in the early days just like they do now.

    You mention the 1914 problems (the mine riots). As bad as 1914 was, this was not the first or the last major labor problem. There were riots at Huntington and a major strike in the region (which greatly disrupted the Frisco) in 1899. A regional strike disrupted all the railroads in the area, it didn't single any one company out. Following this 1899 "event" there was a whole series of strikes, virtually every time a contract expired. I'm not attempting to take sides here, just state the historical fact that the problems occurred. A potential strike was just as expensive for a coal burning railroad as a "real" strike. Coal had to be stockpiled, "just in case."

    The "last straw" event (for Frisco) that I referred to was the 5 month strike in 1922. By now technology had finally reached the point, and availability of oil the volume, to permit Frisco to push a change to oil. Of course this didn't happen overnight, but it did happen and the strike was a (the?) major reason it was pushed hard on the Central Division.

    The result was the "irony" mentioned earlier that coal fired locomotives were hauling oil (and coal) on other divisions while oil burners were hauling coal (as freight - not for the Frisco's use) on the Central Division, and this was long before the 1940 photo in Fort Smith.
     
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  16. gna

    gna Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Anyone have a picture of 1303? Engineer's side?
     
  17. yardmaster

    yardmaster Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Last edited: May 4, 2017
  18. gna

    gna Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Thanks Chris. I have that one and another from Springfield-Greene, but they're both fireman's side.
     
  19. rjthomas909

    rjthomas909 Member Frisco.org Supporter

    1298 from a FaceBook post by John B. McGinnis: "My grandfather (Hugh McGinnis) at work in St Louis on the railroad. Maybe the Maplewood station. 1920's. Hugh is second from left. The guy on the far right looks like the man that stokes the steam engine - given his dirty clothes and work gloves. Names of the others is unknown..."

    Frisco 1298 StLouis 1920s - Hugh McGinnis .jpg
     
  20. frisco1522

    frisco1522 Staff Member Staff Member

    1304 St Louis MO 9-24-49 RF.jpg
     

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