Missouri Southern Railroad and Frisco

Discussion in 'Salem Branch' started by yardmaster, Jan 31, 2011.

  1. yardmaster

    yardmaster Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Folks -
    There was a thread that had begun in the General section, inquiring about the Mo. Southern.

    In all of my infinite dumbnicity while attempting to moderate and move to the "Salem Branch" forum, I apparently deleted the posts rather than "de-selecting them."

    I'll attemp to re-start the discussion here. And, please accept my sincere, blushing apologies for the gaffe, especially to those of you who had laready posted.

    Best Regards,
     
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  2. timothy_cannon

    timothy_cannon Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Thanks Chris, I can't remember the members name but he or she was looking for information concerning a connection between the Missouri Southern and the Frisco at Salem. I sure can't find anything in all of my maps and such that would indicate a connection there. Not to say there was not a connection but it seems the MS line only went as far as Bunker. This line was also at one time a three foot narrow gauge line. I'll keep looking!
    Tim
     
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  3. frisco4301

    frisco4301 Member

    NMRA Bulletin, Vol. 37, No. 1, 1972 has an article entitled "Narrow Gauge in the St. Francis Valley" written by Lee A. Dew.

    According to Mr. Dew, the Missouri Southern was organized in 1883 as the Mill Spring, Current River & Barnesville Railroad. Original construction was 25 pound rail three feet apart from a junction with the Iron Mountain at Leeper, MO to timber cutting areas in the Black River valley.

    In 1887 the name was changed to the Missouri Southern Railroad. In 1903, the line was lengthened to more than 30 miles with new 40 pound rail. Eventually the line was built to Bunker, MO. In 1910, the line was broadened to standard gauge. By 1940, the line was abandoned.

    I have an original employee timetable dated Sept., 23, 1934 which shows the line starting at Leeper, MO, MP 0.0 and ending at Bunker, MO, MP 53.8. A branch line came off the main at Hobart, MO, MP 49.8 and ending at Brushy, MO, MP 65.2. The branch is identified as the Current River Branch.

    Noted in the Dew article is ownership of 2 passenger cars. On the amusing side, I have a Missouri Southern pass dated 1939 issued to Herman Radtke, President, with the lines President signature, Herman Radtke, and countersigned by Herman Radtke. He did however, fail to sign the back of the pass.

    I can see no connection with the Frisco at Salem or any other location.

    Jeff Cooney, Lindsay, TX
     
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  4. klrwhizkid

    klrwhizkid Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

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  5. I didn't find a listing for the Missouri Southern (MS) Railroad or the Mill Spring, Current River & Barnesville (MSCR&B) Railroad in the 1893 Official Guide to the Railways.

    The 1901 Official Guide has an abbreviated timetable showing the Missouri Southern as extending from Leeper to Ellington, 34 miles. It boasted some intriguing station names:

    M. P.---Station
    0.0-----Leeper
    3.0-----Chilton
    8.0-----Duncan Lane
    12.0----Tip Top
    16.0----Cottonville
    22.0----Murrill Springs
    27.0----Hideout
    34.0----Ellington

    Notes
    1) Connects at Leeper, MO with St. Louis, Iron Mountain and Southern (SLIM&S) Railroad.

    Train 2 is shown as leaving Ellington at 7 am daily except Sunday, reaching Leeper at 10 am. Train 1 then departs Leeper at 10:40 am and returns to Ellington at 1:40 pm. The only connection shown is with the St. Louis, Iron Mountain & Southern Railroad at Leeper.

    The 1916 Guide shows the line as extending 54 miles, from Leeper to Bunker. Station names differ from those shown in the 1901 Guide. Mileage to Ellington has also changed, suggesting that parts of the original line may have been relocated, possibly when it was standard-gauged.

    M. P.---Station
    0.0-----Leeper *
    3.0-----Gaylor
    6.0-----Raymond
    7.0-----Hadley
    10.0----Garwood *
    13.0----Cable
    15.0----Helvey
    17.0----Stine
    18.0----Ruble *
    20.0----Grady
    23.0----Oakley
    29.0----Ellington *
    31.0----Buford
    33.0----Bedwell
    35.0----Fruit City
    37.0----Daley - 37
    40.0----Dairyville
    41.0----Hicks
    43.0----Corridon *
    44.0----East Reynolds
    44.0----Reynolds *
    47.0----Ohlman *
    51.0----Melton
    54.0----Bunker *

    Notes
    1) Connects at Leeper, MO with St. Louis, Iron Mountain and Southern (SLIM&S) Railroad.
    2) Connects at Dairyville, MO with Industrial Spur No. 1.
    3) Connects at Corridon, MO with Industrial Spur No. 2.

    Stations marked with an asterisk are designated as telephone stations. Train 1 is shown to leave Leeper at 6:45 am and arrive in Bunker at 10:30 am, with counterpart Train 2 departing Bunker at 11:45 am and arriving Leeper at 4 pm. As before, the only connection listed is with the SLIM&S.

    The map in the 1916 Guide shows a couple of branches. One, labeled "Industrial Spur no. 1", leaves the main line at Dairyville and extends about 15 miles or so in a west-southwesterly direction. The second, labeled "Industrial Spur no. 2", leaves the main line at Corridon, just north of Dairyville, and goes north-northeast for 8-10 miles. The map does not show any visible connection between the MS and the Frisco branch lines in the vicinity.

    The 1926 Guide entry is similar, with the MS extending from Leeper to Bunker. A few stations have been struck from the list, the creatively named industrial spurs have vanished from the map, and the only connection shown is the Missouri Pacific, corporate successor to the SLIM&S. Trains 1 and 2 have a "motor" designation, and are scheduled to run a bit faster than their counterparts of ten years earlier, departing Leeper at 7 am and arriving at Bunker at 9:47 am, then departing Bunker at 10:15 am with a scheduled 1:10 pm return to Leeper.
     
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  6. Here are the Missouri Southern entries from the Official Railway Equipment Registers (ORERs) from 1915, 1919, 1925 and 1930. All show the SLIMS/MoPac at Leeper as the only freight connection. (Scans taken from a set of CD-ROMS by Al Westerfield.)

    MS 1930.JPG MS 1919.JPG MS1915.jpg MS 1925.jpg
     
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  7. klrwhizkid

    klrwhizkid Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    I think we've established that there was no connection made between the MoS and the Frisco despite the possible intent at one time.
     
  8. RogerRT

    RogerRT Staff Member Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Frisco had a branch SE of Salem to Riverside Mines which would make it around 15-miles short of Bunker. Maybe whoever has a map of proposed construction between those two points.

    Roger
     
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  9. yardmaster

    yardmaster Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Thanks to you all for the positive response. My Moderator's Fingers will tread much more carefully in the future so that chesnuts do not have to be further pulled out of the fire. :)
     
  10. tubastogo

    tubastogo Member

    In a "Collier's World Atlas & Gazetteer" copywrite 1941, the Missouri Southern does run from Leeper to Brushy, with a branch to Bunker.

    The SL-SF branch to Salem does terminate there, but there seems to be a deletion on the map; this indicates the line may have extended from Salem in Dent County to Eminence in Shannon County.

    Does anyone have info on this possible former line?

    Chuck McKenzie
    Tubastogo
     
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  11. Morailfan

    Morailfan Member

    Hi, Chuck!

    As you've probably already read, there was indeed never any connection between the SLSF and the MS Bunker line, and to my knowledge, never one planned, although the SLSF branch line SSE from Salem to Riverside Mines did come relatively close. This branch was, as best which vague records can date, abandoned back to Salem around 1915.

    By the way, did you happen to notice any maps showing the construction of track between Rolla and Salem? This line is one few know of, and I've never found any paper evidence of it. I, myself, would have probably never known about it, had it not been graded across a section of my Great-Grandfather's farm!
    When work on the connection was abandoned, he dug up the large ceramic culverts along the grade and brought them up by the house, where he used them as flower pots.

    My grandfather can remember the linear mound of earth running across the cow field in his early youth, but over 100 years of erosion has left nothing, and he can't quite remember exactly where it was. Imagine the possibility of other lines we know nothing about!


    As far as a Frisco line through Eminence, this is an interesting question; one which I can answer for you. Before the Frisco purchased the Salem branch from its builder, the "St. louis, Salem and Little Rock RR", (A name with clear intentions), a route had been surveyed at least to the Arkansas State line, which according to an 1872 map of the state, would have put rails on the ground through Eminence.

    Interest in this construction, however, all but disappeared after the line's purchase buy the Frisco, and although track was laid south of Salem, it was only for a mile, to reach "Smith's Iron Mountain", a mine, still visible today, although just a pile of red rocks. The Frisco would, however, within two decades, have rails through Eminence (albeit, "West Eminence"), but not from the north.

    This would come when a logging railroad, later bought by the Frisco, built north from the Kansas City, Ft. Scott & Memphis' log hauling branch to Grandin, MO at Winona JCT. The line ran north down 'Railroad Hollow' through West Eminence, crossed the Jack's Fork River, and turned 90 degrees due West, skirting the bluffs on the north side of the river for a few miles, until it reached a logging camp known as Angeline. These tracks were gone by 1928, after the last timber in the area was felled.

    In late 2008, I visited the area and tried to find whatever remnants I could of the old route. Hastily built track means little earthwork, and 80 years of shifting soils had left veteran eyes nothing to find. I questioned some locals, and eventually met a middle-aged man, who sat me shotgun in his 4-wheel drive, (next to his dog, named 'Frisco') and together we forded through creeks, and along roads I certainly couldn't have taken my little Honda on, toward a spot where his childhood memory claimed remnants of an old wooden trestle still remained!

    Sadly, when we 'got there', the wide, meandering creek had shifted its course, and had, seemingly long ago, carried those memories erratically downstream. Nothing to photograph, though I think I still did, for imagination's sake. Regardless of any intended goals, it's still worth driving through the area, not only for its scenic beauty, but because one of the large logging mills at West Eminence still stands, its wooden roof years decayed away, and rusting machinery still inside! Although on private property, the kind owner, who lives at the top of the road, will gladly oblige your curiosities if you ask to look around!

    Cheers and happy traipsing!!
    :) |-|
     
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  12. pensive

    pensive Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Missouri Ozark Waterways published by the Missouri Conservation Department has an entry on the Jacks Fork River that might be related to this. The numbers are river mileage from "The Prongs", the junction of the North and South Prong.

    32.3 Horse Hollow on left. The old Salem, Winona and Southern RR used to run up this hollow and continue up Sinking Branch after following the Jacks Fork from Mahan's Creek.
    35.3 Mahan's Creek on right. Site of old RR river crossing just above mouth of creek.
    37.3 Eminence.

    Rich
     
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  13. bridgeman4655

    bridgeman4655 Member

    I would be extremely interested in seeing, at least a scanned image of your Missouri Southern timetable, as well as Mr. Radtke's pass. If you were ever interested in selling these, especially the timetable, I would be very interested. My great grandfather, John A. Prator was a Railroad Blacksmith for the Missouri Southern, his son, my grandfather Ernest P. Prator, was a Master Mechanic for the Missouri Southern, and my great Uncle Earl Prator, was an engineer for the Missouri Southern. My mother (age 80) is the only surviving child of my grandfather. Although I'm not sure which one of my siblings has them now, we have a large collection of photos, tin types, of the greatgrandfather, grandfather, great uncle, and other workers, posing with steam locomotives of the Missouri Southern and one where my grandfather was posing with the first diesel locomotive that the Missouri Southern purchased. My grandfather went with the owner to Pennsylvania (I believe) to pick it up. We have another photo that shows the general office of the Missouri Southern.
    I really appreciated reading the forum threads regarding this carrier as it was pretty hard to find much information about it before the progress of the internet.
     
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  14. frisco4301

    frisco4301 Member

    I left you a private message regarding the ETT and pass. Jeff
     
  15. columbine

    columbine Member

    My grandfather Jules A Fremon, a lawyer also of Leeper, MO, was half owner of the Missouri Southern along with Mr. Radke.

    They did have the first diesel locomotive in Missouri. It was strictly a logging train but he got passes on other trains because of it and he and my father traveled all over the U. S. They wintered in Galveston TX many times. I don't know why they forgot to mention his name.
     
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  16. Joe Lovett

    Joe Lovett Member

    Colleen, Welcome to the Frisco website!!! Please go to forums, click on "New Member Introductions" and tell us about yourself.

    Joe
     
  17. jdstotler

    jdstotler Member

    37FADB50-A7BE-4255-8A4F-2BB736CA5D86.jpeg
    Missouri Southern Railroad Time Table

    The company fought long and hard to make it to Salem, but never succeeded. The gap between the Mo Southern Railroad and the Salem & Eastern Railroad was only about 12 1/2 miles, but never completed. Sad, Salem would have been very different had it seen a through connection.
     
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  18. jdstotler

    jdstotler Member

    55FBFCA2-5214-4C2C-9A71-965869A19E22.jpeg

    This map from 1928 really puts in perspective just how close they got to their through connection…
     
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  19. tferk

    tferk Member Frisco.org Supporter

    The Missouri Public Service Commission reports Vol 3 has a Missouri Southern rate case as its first entry, and it includes a lot of details about this line.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=5GUSAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=missouri+public+service+commission+1916&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjrnPuij9T-AhVfiO4BHc_jC20Q6AF6BAgGEAI#v=onepage&q=missouri public service commission 1916&f=false

    Some excerpts:

    The property under consideration consists of a single-track railroad some fifty-four miles in length between its termini Leeper and Bunker, with two industrial spurs, which together with sidetracks and yard tracks, make a total track mileage of approximately seventy miles. From its junction with the Iron Mountain railroad at Leeper in Wayne county it runs northwest to Bunker in Reynolds county, most of the road being in Reynolds county.

    Two industrial spurs branch off at Dairyville and Corridon near its western terminus. The road was built at various times between 1884 and 1908 apparently the first nine miles in 1887 and the last ten miles in 1908. Though incorporated as a common carrier in 1884 the line was operated as a narrow gauge road with forty-pound steel until 1907, when it was changed to standard gauge and sixty-pound rail placed on the main line . The spurs and sidings are laid with forty pound steel. Both white and red oak ties are used. Gravel is used for ballast. In 1912 the road was reported at about one third ballasted.

    There are many sharp curves and heavy grades on the main track, the curvature approximating thirty per cent of the mileage and of the fifty-four miles of main line there are only three miles of level track . There are forty ascending grades west bound, with a total ascent of 2001 feet, the maximum and ruling grade being 3 per cent uncompensated on a curve of 9 degrees and 26 minutes.

    Eastbound there are thirty-two ascending grades , with a total ascent of 1077 feet , the maximum and ruling grade being 3000 feet of 2.3 per cent grade on a 9 degree curve . There are steep hills at Garwood, Oakley and Red Oak, ten, twenty-four and thirty-four miles from Leeper, which have controlling grades of over three per cent against westbound and over 2 per cent against eastbound traffic.

    The regular westbound train hauls thirteen empty cars up Garwood hill, nineteen up Oakley and fifteen up Red Oak hill, and returning hauls ten loaded cars up Red Oak hill and seven up Oakley and Garwood hills. When the train exceeds the above limits, cars are cut out and hauled up the grades in sections, the process known as "doubling the hills". Generally, the width of the right of way is fifty feet through agricultural land and one hundred feet through timber and "cutover" land, with the exception of a two hundred foot right of way through Ellington.
     
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  20. mark

    mark Staff Member Staff Member

    Ted,

    Thank you for posting this information.

    However, suspect is the eastbound maximum and ruling grade is 2.3 percent on a 9 degree curve. A 23 percent grade seems a bit excessive even for a former narrow gauge line in mountainous territory.

    Hope this helps.

    Thanks!

    Mark
     
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