Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc. - updated

Discussion in 'Business Cars' started by TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020), May 5, 2008.

  1. pbender

    pbender Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc.

    Right, there is a thread on the last business car #2 here:

    http://www.frisco.org/shipit/index.php?threads/business-car-2.848/

    I've posted 7 photos in my collection of the car. 3 of these are in green paint, 1 in Orange and White, and the rest are shots of the car in BN paint.

    There is almost enough information in that thread by itself to model the car. The only thing missing is the general arrangement diagram, which is necessary to determine correct spacings. Fortunatly, I have a copy of the 1992 Burlington Northern Annual by Robert Del Grosso, which includes a general arrangement diagram of both former Frisco cars while in BN service.

    Paul
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2016
  2. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc.

    The photos I posted along with the ones Paul posted and linked make a text book of photos of the appearance of the "Saint Louis" business car over the years:
    --Named "Saint Louis: in Pullman green and pin stripes (early 1950's).
    --Numbered #2 in Pullman green and pin stripes (early 1960's).
    --Numbered #2 in Pullman green without pin stipes (late 1960's),
    --Numbered #2 in mandarin and white (1970's).
    --Finally in BN green (1980's).

    I don't have any further information on the business cars beyond the end of the Frisco era and the BN merger.

    Tom

    PS: The car names on the business car draftsman's drawing that was posted by Karl Brand are "Oklahoma," "Tennessee," "Alabama," "Springfield" with "Missouri" crossed off. So-o-o, why "Oklahoma" is on the list (rebuilt from a different type car than the others) and "Saint Louis" is not, is still a mystery--Also why was "Missouri" crossed off???
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 9, 2008
  3. pbender

    pbender Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc.

    Both Frisco cars lasted through the BN era to BNSF.

    #1 became BNA7 first named Canadian River and then Kootanei River. After the BNSF merger, BNA7 became BNSF82 and retained the name Kootanei River. BNSF82 is used as a research and test car.
    see: http://www.trainpix.com/bn/PASSCAR/BUSINESS/A7.HTM for BNA7 in the late BN era executive colors.
    see: http://www.railcarphotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=10411 for a photo of the car in the BNSF era (and notice that BNSF replaced the 3 axle trucks with 2 axle trucks).

    #2 became BNA9 Meremec River and is now on display at the BNSF headquarters as James J. Hill.
    see:http://oddballsdecals.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=204811 for a photo of the car as James J. Hill

    As to why Saint Louis is not listed... the BN era drawings I mentioned earlier tell that story. BNA7 (ex-SLSF#1) is shown as being 82' 7 5/8" over the couler faces with a 70' 11 11/16" inside length and 55' 4" truck centers. BNA9 (ex-SLSF#2) is shown as being 86' 2 5/8" over the coupler faces with a 75' 1" inside length and 59' 9" truck centers.

    BN didn't change any of the physical dimentions of the car (they didn't even change any of the window placements) so the only explanation is that when Saint Louis was rebuilt from it's prior use, it was built to a different set of plans than the cars listed on the drawing Karl posted.

    The Drawing of BNA7 in the Del Grosso book shows the same floor plan that Karl's drawing shows, so I have no idea why Missouri is crossed off the list in Karl's drawing.

    Paul
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 8, 2008
  4. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc.

    How about just one more?
    I believe this car is the ex KCFS&M #200 that was donated to the National Museum of Transport at St. Louis in 1949. Probably photographed at the museum ca. 1959 (Jerry Moore photo, Pat Coughlin collection)

    Tom
     

    Attached Files:

  5. yardmaster

    yardmaster Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc.

    Tom thanks so much for sharing all of these pictures and your efforts to put the maze of renumbering/renaming in one document!

    And thanks also to Paul and Gordon and all the rest for adding information as needed.

    I wish I had made notes on which O/W business car parked in Chaffee in 1980 for "Frisco Days." They had one of the last 2 remaining cars along with a new O/W ex-PS-1 bay window caboose open for tours. I think the business car brought M.M. Pomphrey and perhaps other Frisco brass.

    Wonderful photos!
     
  6. gbmott

    gbmott Member

    Re: Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc.

    Tom

    The photo of "Saint Louis" is Fort Smith, 8/20/61, and either Louis Marre or I took it (we were both there).
     
  7. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc.

    Gordon--Sorry your photo wasn't properly credited--I have lots of prints purchased at train shows and flea markets that are blank on the reverse with no information whatsoever. I'll edit the info on my post.

    Tom
     
  8. jmlaboda

    jmlaboda Member

    Re: Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc.

    Well, I think I have figured out which car became the ONR Moosonee, and it is not the Tennessee, which is the car named in some histories of the KCS 1887 Arthur E. Stillwell, later renamed to Laredo, now operating as IAIS 100 Hawkeye, and the answer, at least for me was staring me right in the face.

    I mentioned earlier that although business cars that were rebuilt around the same time looked alike they still have detail differences and this is true of the group of cars rebuilt by the Frisco. Although broadside views of the business cars are not all that plentiful, there are minor variations among the detail that can be found, if one looks close enough, that identifies one car from another. Because of this I believe I have found an answer to which car the Moosonee was.

    The first photo is of SLSF #3 (ex-4, exx-Oklahoma), taken by Mike Condren in 1967. Note the shape of the metal awning above the open platform, which is thinner and shaped differently than any of the other Frisco business cars from this group.
    http://www.cbu.edu/~mcondren/Frisco Catalog/Others/FR543.jpg

    The second photo is a shot of the Ontario Northland's Moosonee, taken by Don Smith. Note that the metal awning above the open platform is shaped the same way. Because of this I have reason to believe that the ONR car is formerly the Oklahoma and not the Tennessee, as has been reported in several roster lists on the web.
    http://users.thot.net/lalande/jamesleo/DS12.htm

    Thoughts, comments???
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 17, 2008
  9. jmlaboda

    jmlaboda Member

    Re: Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc.

    Now to tackle the history of WC/SSAM 100 Superior.

    One of the most obvious detail differences between the Superior and other Frisco heritage business cars is the placement of the vent above the hallway window on that side of the car. Unlike all but one car, this vent was typically placed either centered over the window or slightly to the left of center, with its left edge nearly even with the window's left edge. I have been rather puzzled about it, not having had the time to really look good at what has now been posted to the web, but I believe I now have an answer about this car.

    In looking at the images Tom posted of #2 and the Tennessee (same car, different dates) I noticed that this car had the same vent offset to the right of the center line for the window, just as the Superior had. Also, the metal awning on the open-platform is shaped the same, even including the rivet line that shows in the end shot of #2, though it is hard to make out on the images that I have available to me.

    Below are two links to images of the Wisconsin Central/Sault Ste. Marie Bridge Company 100 Superior. Note the vent placement in comparison to the images posted above by Tom. It is compelling evidence.
    http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=661132
    http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=980659
    http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=839816
    http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=212830

    Thoughts, comments, ideas???
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 17, 2008
  10. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc.

    I don't have any more info or details to add re: Frisco business cars after the horrible mandarin & white and the equally awful BN green schemes were applied.
    I DO wonder why those rich guys who wind up buying retired business cars paint them in colors that looked like they had been picked out by their wives at Home Depot!!?!

    Tom
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 16, 2008
  11. jmlaboda

    jmlaboda Member

    Re: Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc.

    "I DO wonder why those rich guys who wind up buying retired business cars paint them in colors that looked like they had been picked out by their wives at Home Depot!!?!"

    Because they often have to live with those wives on the car!!!
     
  12. Re: Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc.

    I may have a little insight to offer here. I was the person who purchased the now "Superior" for the Wisconsin Central. I can tell you that it was NOT the "Moosonee", because BOTH cars were located at Texas Tank Car Works at the same time when I purchased the car which became Superior. In fact there was a third former SLSF car there at the same time. I can also give what I remember: when we purchased the car, there was still a framed blueprint of the floor plan of the car in the hallway adjacent to the kitchen which indicated that the car, in SLSF use, was the #2 Tennessee. Texas Tank Car Works had replaced the floor in the kitchen area and the kitchen hallway area, and made some internal modifications of a minor nature in the kitchen area. The air conditioning system was also replaced during the time the car was in the previous ownership as the Montana, but the conversion was done with no changes to the interior of the car. I've spent a lot of time looking at business cars over the years and I have found that the SLSF design was the best thought out and best implemented that I have seen. I'd like to find another former Frisco car now.
     
  13. jmlaboda

    jmlaboda Member

    Nice to be proven right.,.. even if it did take over 4 years.

    What I mentioned before still remains true... while you can have a large number of business cars built to the same plan the vents on the roof will not be the same unless a full replacement of the roof is undertaken. This is how I have been able to spot which Southern business cars became which privately owned car as well as subsequent renumberings, and I have documentation now, that I didn't use to have, that backs me up on the SR cars. Now where'd you say to send that steak dinner after you confirmed my speculation??? LOL!!!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 12, 2012
  14. a02l1zz

    a02l1zz Member

    Re: Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc.

    Hi All,

    I've been doing some research in to Burlington Northern Business Cars "Kootenai River" (Formerly SLSF 1, SLSF Saint Louis) and "Meramec River" (Formerly SLSF 2, SLSF Missouri) for some models in HO Scale. During the correspondence with someone as we worked to figure out the passenger car trucks used under both of these cars, I was sent some pictures of Louis W. Grant #200, painted in Pullman Colors with "Gold" lettering, but no Pin Stripes, with SL-SF name on the observation end of the car. The photographs were taken in Houston, TX in the early to mid to 70's.

    One of the shots shows a slogon on the outside railing of the open observation platform that states "You will enjoy doing business with people who care".

    Can anyone tell me about the car? Is this a former SLSF Passenger / Business car? If so, is there any reason why it wouldn't show up in the PDF document that Tom put together documenting the SLSF business car fleet?

    James
     
  15. pbender

    pbender Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc.

    This was not a Frisco Car.

    The information I've seen (which Jerry Laboda posted on another site) is that the car was a Pullman company lease car. Jerry can probably elaborate.

    Paul
     
  16. jmlaboda

    jmlaboda Member

    Originally built as a Pullman leaser private car named Henry Stanley in 1927, it was sold to the Santa Fe in 1944 where it became ATSF 20. Never a Frisco car.
     
  17. a02l1zz

    a02l1zz Member

    Re: Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc.

    Jerry,

    Thank you for the information. Being a Pullman Private lease car, could it have been assigned to the SLSF at some point? Wonder when the ATSF got rid of the car, as it was back in Pullman colors, albeit with the SL-SF markings by the early 1970s, I assume that Pullman was done by then.

    James
     
  18. jmlaboda

    jmlaboda Member

    As a priveate car leaser it was used by wealthy individuals and company heads to travel to various places, as deemed necessary by the one leasing it. Some of these wealthy individuals included actors and actresses, financiers, and even railroad executives (for lines that later acquired the cars outright). As to when did the ATSF retire the car, I simply am not sure. One photo, posted to ABPR at railfan.net, shows the car before the Santa Fe modernized it but there is no date included with it...
    http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?july09/07-07-09/at+sf20p.jpg

    Pullman withdrew from passenger car operations around 1967, IIRC.
     
  19. yardmaster

    yardmaster Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Jerry, if nothing else, that photo shows excellent underbody detail!

    Best Regards,
     
  20. DanHyde

    DanHyde Member

    Re: Frisco Business Cars, names, numbers etc.

    Does anyone know of or have a photo or plan of a heavyweight business / observation car with a clerestory roof? I found one available in G at the bay, undecorated in Pullman green. Might be an easy decal job.
    Thanks for any direction.
    Dan


    edit: Leaped before I looked!! Check this link.

    http://passcarphotos.info/Indices/BC11b.htm#SLSF
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 13, 2014

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