The Leaky Roof (KCC&S) and Olathe

Discussion in 'Kansas City Subdivision' started by klrwhizkid, Oct 28, 2014.

  1. klrwhizkid

    klrwhizkid Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Attached is a scan of a copy of The Leaky Roof by Mahlon Neill White. The book was printed in 1970, is out of print and copyright has expired. Also attached are sketches of structures that were in Olathe KS along the KCC&S and the Frisco as well as a page from a track chart showing the link between the Santa Fe and the Frisco.

    Apologies for the poor copy quality - it is as was passed on to me.
     

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  2. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Nice Keith, thanks for posting!

    Ken
     
  3. Sirfoldalot

    Sirfoldalot Frisco.org Supporter Frisco.org Supporter

    I liked that!
    skim read, but will come back for a closer look.
     
  4. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    When The Printery in Clinton published Mahlon Whites booklet, the KC Star promoted the publication with an article about the Leaky Roof. The map in the attached article incorrectly identifies the railroads between Grandview and Harrisonville and between Lowery City and Vista.

    One of Mahlon's sources was a an article by A. B. Mac Donald taken from the Style Section of KC Star, July 29, 1934. After the ICC granted permisson to abandon the line, Mr MacDonald, spent two days riding the line between Grandview and Springfield. If one wanted to ride from KC to Springfield via the Leaky Roof, a three-day journey was required.
     

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    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 3, 2014
  5. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Karl - More good Frisco background, thanks! I never did understand much about the "Leaky Roof", now I get it. I recall being shown the old KC,C&S ROW during a visit to the museum in Ash Grove years ago.

    Ken
     
  6. klrwhizkid

    klrwhizkid Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    These attachments were provided by Mark Davidson (mark) from Chuck Hitchcock, local railfan and model railroad. They were produced by Buck Dean.
     

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  7. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    ETT evidence and other sources suggest that the Raymore Jct Pleasant Hill segment may not have been abandoned until circa 1916, however, the service was suspended earlier. I believe that this was done in part as an accounting maneuver to maintain asset value on the KCFts&M/KCCS side of the ledger after the merger with the Frisco. The ICC gave formal approval on Oct 24, 1924 for the Frisco to acquire the Leaky Roof. Prior to this date, the KCCS was "owned" by the Memphis Road.
    The Staley ( MP 9.14) - Belton was abandoned during 1928. The abandoned work was funded under AFE 19641, which was dated 10/1/1928.
    The Olathe - Stanley ( MP 9.14) segment abandonment was funded under AFE 20701, which was dated 3/21/1934. The Stanley Depot was sold, and moved. Rumors persist that it is still extant, and in one of the Johnson County or "Shawnee" Parks

    BTW... Buck Dean is our "Rancho Bob"
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 3, 2014
  8. RogerRT

    RogerRT Staff Member Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    I don't know, I really have problem with some of these dates. First the Corliss-Olathe segment, from every one of my sources it was abandoned in 1894, except for 0.3-miles west of the ATSF xing to serve a flour mill. This was abandoned sometime between 1912-1924 & of course the part between the ATSF & SLSF was retained and is in service today. I have never seen anything stating it was revived in 1917 to carry munitions, presumably from the Sunflower Ordinance Plant, which was no where near Corliss. 2nd the Stanley-Belton segment was only granted authority to discontinue operations on 10/20/1928, not abandoned in 1927, this is similar to what happened to the Lead Belt line south of Cuba. http://tacnet.missouri.org/history/railroads/fd6598.html Although the xing over the MP was removed (diamonds are the 1st thing they rip up, very hard to maintain), abandonment was not approved until 12/27/1934 with what was left of the KCC&S between Belton-Phenix. http://tacnet.missouri.org/history/railroads/fd10234.html 3rd According to official abandonment documents I found in the Frisco Archives in Rolla the Raymore Jct.-Pleasant Hill line was abandoned in 1902 except for 0.7-miles that the MP used to access its line to Carthage. Basically from the wye to just south of the Rock Island xing in Pleasant Hill, this line was leased until 1/5/1927 when it was sold to the Missouri Pacific. 4th the Stanley depot is supposed to be at the Overland Park Arboretum although I have not confirmed this.

    Roger R. Taylor
     
  9. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    Valuation Maps...

    As I recall, the 1909 Annual report still has the Raymore Jct - P Hill segment on the books. I agree that it wasn't operated during 1909.
     

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  10. I have a 1901 KCFS&M employee timetable which includes the KCC&S. It shows a twice-weekly, Tuesdays-and-Fridays scheduled wayfreight between Raymore Jct. and Pleasant Hill; however, it is described in the side notes as being operated by the crew and equipment of the regularly scheduled southbound wayfreight on those days. There is no additional time allocated to the southbound wayfreight on those days, so it would presumably have had to run late the rest of the way to Clinton if it detoured to Pleasant Hill and back. It is an open question to me whether these trains actually operated as often as described or whether they were regularly annulled.

    I can't actually think of any good reason for any freight to travel this route, unless coal or some other traffic originating on the KCC&S was being sent to a destination in Pleasant Hill and the KCC&S wished to avoid dividing the revenue for the haul. (The MP did have a coaling station there, according to contemporary Sanborn maps. Did they have any nearby online coal sources?). Surely any remotely time-sensitive interchange traffic could have been better handled more efficiently at Harrisonville, where both railroads operated daily freights.

    Raymore Jct. continues to appear in KCC&S ETTs for 1904 and 1910, but without Pleasant Hill or any scheduled train movements to PH. It does not appear in an 1918 ETT, either in the main list of stations or in the list of sidings and spurs between stations.

    This is all plausibly consistent with Roger's description of Raymore Jct - Pleasant Hill being abandoned in 1902.

    A couple of years ago I casually inquired by telephone with Kemper Farm, the park rumored to hold the Stanley depot. Unfortunately, the response I got was that it had fallen into disrepair and had been torn down sometime within the last few years. No one I talked to really seemed to know for certain. A Bing birds-eye view of the buildings at the farm does seem to show a dilapidated building about the right size and shape to be a small railroad depot, just west of the large white barn, but I haven't been able to find out anything further about it.
     
  11. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    From ICC valuation Google Books...
    DEVELOPMENT OF FIXED PHYSICAL PROPERTYThe owned mileage of the Kansas City, Clinton and Springfield, aggregating 155.181 miles, was acquired as detailed below. Of the ten corporations that comprise the line of succession culminating in the Kansas City, Clinton and Springfield as at present constituted, five corporations did not construct any road or other common-carrier property. These companies were:

    • St. Louis, Lawrence and Western Railroad Company.
    • Saint Louis, Lawrence & Denver Railroad Company. (Fourth corporation.)
    • Lawrence and Carbondale Railroad Company.
    • Pleasant Hill and Lawrence Branch of the Pacific Railroad Company.
    • Lawrence and Pleasant Hill Railway Company.
    The extent of the construction completed, if any, by two corporations is not known. These companies were:

    • Saint Louis, Lawrence and Denver Railroad Company. (Second corporation.)
    • St. Louis, Lawrence and Denver Railroad Company. (First corporation.)
    The property constructed by the remaining corporations, the years when the various portions of the line were constructed, and the manner in which the Kansas City, Clinton and Springfield acquired the property, are indicated in the following table.
    Acquired in the consolidation of Jan. 20, 1885:From the Pleasant Hill and De Soto Railroad Company, construction commenced by the St. Louis, Lawrence and Denver Railroad Company (first corporation) and completed by the Saint Louis, Lawrence & Denver Railroad Company (third corporation), Cedar Junction, Kans., to Pleasant Hill, Mo., completed about 1871 44.82From the Kansas City, Clinton and Springfield Railroad Company, the exact mileage not indicated by the records reviewedAcquired by purchase from the Kansas City, Fort Scott and Memphis Railroad Company, June 27, 1901, Arcadia, Kans., to Springfield, Mo. 85.00Acquired by construction, the exact mileage not indicated by the records reviewedThe mileage constructed by the Kansas City, Clinton and Springfield Railroad Company and the Kansas City, Clinton and Springfield, Raymore Junction to Ash Grove, Mo., completed about April, 1886 129.70Total 259.52Less sales and abandonments:Sold to the Kansas City, Fort Scott and Memphis Railway Company, Nov. 1, 1906 85.00Abandonments—Cedar Junction to Olathe, Kans., 1894 11.49Raymore Junction to Pleasant Hill, Mo., 1916 7.8019.29Total 104.29Net total of above items 155.23Difference between total recorded mileage and mileage inventoried as of date of valuation, deduction .049Mileage inventoried as of date of valuation 155.181


    ICC Valuation Summary


    DEVELOPMENT OF FIXED PHYSICAL PROPERTYThe owned mileage of the Kansas City, Clinton and Springfield, aggregating 155.181 miles, was acquired as detailed below. Of the ten corporations that comprise the line of succession culminating in the Kansas City, Clinton and Springfield as at present constituted, five corporations did not construct any road or other common-carrier property. These companies were:

    • St. Louis, Lawrence and Western Railroad Company.
    • Saint Louis, Lawrence & Denver Railroad Company. (Fourth corporation.)
    • Lawrence and Carbondale Railroad Company.
    • Pleasant Hill and Lawrence Branch of the Pacific Railroad Company.
    • Lawrence and Pleasant Hill Railway Company.
    The extent of the construction completed, if any, by two corporations is not known. These companies were:

    • Saint Louis, Lawrence and Denver Railroad Company. (Second corporation.)
    • St. Louis, Lawrence and Denver Railroad Company. (First corporation.)
    The property constructed by the remaining corporations, the years when the various portions of the line were constructed, and the manner in which the Kansas City, Clinton and Springfield acquired the property, are indicated in the following table.
    Acquired in the consolidation of Jan. 20, 1885:From the Pleasant Hill and De Soto Railroad Company, construction commenced by the St. Louis, Lawrence and Denver Railroad Company (first corporation) and completed by the Saint Louis, Lawrence & Denver Railroad Company (third corporation), Cedar Junction, Kans., to Pleasant Hill, Mo., completed about 1871 44.82From the Kansas City, Clinton and Springfield Railroad Company, the exact mileage not indicated by the records reviewedAcquired by purchase from the Kansas City, Fort Scott and Memphis Railroad Company, June 27, 1901, Arcadia, Kans., to Springfield, Mo. 85.00Acquired by construction, the exact mileage not indicated by the records reviewedThe mileage constructed by the Kansas City, Clinton and Springfield Railroad Company and the Kansas City, Clinton and Springfield, Raymore Junction to Ash Grove, Mo., completed about April, 1886 129.70Total 259.52Less sales and abandonments:Sold to the Kansas City, Fort Scott and Memphis Railway Company, Nov. 1, 1906 85.00Abandonments—Cedar Junction to Olathe, Kans., 1894 11.49Raymore Junction to Pleasant Hill, Mo., 1916 7.8019.29Total 104.29Net total of above items 155.23Difference between total recorded mileage and mileage inventoried as of date of valuation, deduction .049Mileage inventoried as of date of valuation 155.181The Kansas City, Clinton and Springfield reconstructed and rehabilitated the road acquired from the Pleasant Hill and De Soto Railroad Company in the consolidation of January 20, 1885, with the exception of about 11.49 miles extending from Cedar Junction to Olathe, Kans., the tracks on this portion of the road being taken up in 1894. The company states that this 11.49 miles of road was not operated from 1885, when it was acquired, until 1894, when the tracks were taken up, and that the remainder of the property acquired from the Pleasant Hill and De Soto Railroad Company was not placed in full operation until April 1, 1886.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 4, 2014
  12. RogerRT

    RogerRT Staff Member Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Well, all I can say is one of these dates is wrong. Attached is the document I got out of the official Frisco records on a visit to Rolla in the early 2000's, it is signed & dated 3/17/1939. The other 2 pertain to sale of the Pleasant Hill trackage to MP in 1926-1927. I believe the reason Raymore Jct. is still listed on the timetables after 1902 is because there was a siding/passing track located there.

    Roger
     

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  13. klrwhizkid

    klrwhizkid Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    One of the reasons for initiating this thread is that our local group of rail fans/modelers is planning our 17th annual Walk in the Weeds. The Walk in the Weeds is a one-day rail-fanning activity that takes place the day after Thanksgiving. Our selected area of interest this year is the Desoto/Olathe KS area and the history of railroads in the area. The coordinator of this activity is Mark Davidson (mark). Anyone interested should contact Mark or me.

    Thank you to all who are contributing to the information gathering for this event; please feel free to join us if you wish.
     
  14. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    I have no doubt that service on the Raymore Junction - Pleasant Hill segment ended during 1902. You are correct, there was a passing track at Raymore Junction. Even though KCCS ETT Number 27, June 12, 1910 doesn't list side track capacity, we can infer the presence of a passing track because through passenger trains 5 and 6 met daily at Raymore Junction at 2:50 PM. I also believe that even though service was suspended on this segment of the KCCS, the track remained in place until 1916 as stated in the ICC valuation. The 1909 Frisco Annual report on page 67 lists a summary of debt and included in this summary are bonds issued during 1985 by the New England Trust Company. To secure the bonds a lien was placed on 162.63 miles of KCCS track, which included the Raymore Junction - Pleasant Hill segment. As of 1909, approximately $3.3 mm were outstanding on the debt. It's my belief that because of the lien, the track could not be removed at the time service was suspended. After the bankruptcy of 1913 and the sale to a receiver during 1916, the debt was most likely restructured which removed the lien, thus clearing the way for the removal of the track.
     

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    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 6, 2014
  15. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    Keith,

    I hope that during your “walk-about”, your group will be able to explore for any remnants of the Olathe KCCS engine house, which was still around during the mid-20’s. Until the line was severed between Stanley and Belton, Olathe was a “going Jesse” with both Frisco and KCCS freights originating and terminating at Olathe. During 1923 tri-weekly KCCS freights, 5, 11, 6, & 10 operated between Olathe and Clinton, Frisco trains 160 and 169 operated between Olathe and 19[SUP]th[/SUP] Street, and trains 140 and 141 operated between Olathe and Ft Scott. KCCS trains 6 & 11 connected with Frisco trains 160 and 169.
    At this time, KCCS passenger trains reached KC via the Frisco’s KC Sub, which hosted 19 passenger trains per day.
    An operational wrinkle from 1910 saw the Frisco routing Clinton Sub trains 48, 49, 53, and 54 between Olathe and Belton, where they assumed Frisco rails. One can only speculate about the reason that traffic was sent over the Leaky Roof.


    At present Thanksgiving plans are in flux, and I don't know where in Missouri, I'll be. (The spousal unit is the travel agent.) Your group will be looking at some interesting areas.
     

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  16. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    Karl--I'm curious about trs. 111-112 "The Meteor" on your timetable. I'm unfamiliar with a "Meteor" out of Kansas City, was it a connection to the St.Louis-Oklahoma "Meteor?" Or was the Meteor running from KC in those days??

    Thanks, Tom G.
     
  17. railroadpete

    railroadpete Member Frisco.org Supporter

    I remember hiking with a friend about one to two miles east of Pleasant Hill off of Raffurty road and finding sandstone bridge supports for the old AT&SF line through there.

    -Pete
     
  18. railroadpete

    railroadpete Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Oops - two miles WEST of Pleasant Hill!
     
  19. SAFN SAAP

    SAFN SAAP Member

    I have a beautiful photograph of KCC&S 4-4-0 No. 186, and Caboose No. 5. So good, that I can make decals for them. How many of you would like decals for the KCC&S besides the 34' boxcar I have coming out. If I can find other pictures of gondolas, flats, etc., I would do those as well.

    Let me know

    Thanks,

    Manny
     
  20. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    Do you mean number 86?
     

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