Kirkwood, MO, Rolla Subdivision, MP 12.7

Discussion in 'Depots G-P' started by choochoo63, Feb 28, 2009.

  1. choochoo63

    choochoo63 New Member Frisco.org Supporter

    In 2006 I posted a thread that inquired about the location of the Kirkwood, MO depot. I received a few replies and they all suggested that the depot had been located near where the current BN tracks cross Kirkwood Road (Lindbergh) and that the depot was demolished long ago.

    However, in today's (2/28/09) edition of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, "Lifestyle Section", there is an interesting article about a couple who have remodeled and currently live in the former Frisco Kirkwood Depot building. The location is on Barberry near the current BN tracks. This is off of Big Bend Road about a 1/4 mile west of Interstate 270 in Kirkwood, and is almost 2 miles from the suggested depot location at Kirkwood Road (Lindbergh).

    Can anyone shed any further light on this? Were there 2 Kirkwood Depots, one that still exists on Barberry as described in the newspaper article and another one at Kirkwood Road that has been demolished?
     
    mountaincreekar likes this.
  2. pensive

    pensive Member Frisco.org Supporter

    The station was called "Meramec Highlands" or, later, "Osage Hills", the site of a popular resort circa 1900. Here's the thread:

    http://www.frisco.org/vb/showthread.php?t=1917

    There was also a tunnel nearby that has since been bricked up:

    http://www.frisco.org/vb/showthread.php?t=1088

    In the book Frisco Power by Joe Collias there is a photo on page 292 of the site in it's heyday, prior to the building of the stone depot.

    For a 1950's view of the depot, refer to page 94 of Trackside around St. Louis 1952-1959 with Jim Ozment by James Sandrin, though it erroneously places the station on the "Memphis" division.

    Rich
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 28, 2009
  3. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    I know the family that lives in the old Frisco Osage Hills depot. It has been turned into a VERY nice home!

    And, there was indeed a Kirkwood depot, a small one, that sat at the crossing of the SLSF on the west side of Kirkwood Road (Lindbergh Blvd). It originally sat on the north side of the tracks, then late in its life it was moved to the south side of the tracks. I don't know for sure, but I'd guess it was just a commuter depot, as I don't think the regular passenger runs stopped there. See Joe Collias' "Frisco Power", page 281, for a pic.

    Ken
     
    mountaincreekar likes this.
  4. frisco1522

    frisco1522 Staff Member Staff Member

    Ken there's an article in the Sunday Post Disgrace about the Meramec Highlands depot and the folks who bought it. It's in the Lifestyle section.
    I'm wondering if there was a depot at Windsor Springs? I have a photo of a 1500 crossing Geyer Rd WB and there's a depot looking building about halfway between Geyer and Kirkwood Rd. I don't guess there would be a Sanborn map of that area.
     
  5. frisco1522

    frisco1522 Staff Member Staff Member

    I'm wondering if there was a depot at Windsor Springs? I have a photo of a WB passenger train crossing Geyer back in the '30s and it appears there is a depot building between Kirkwood Rd and Geyer Rd on the north side of the tracks. Kirkwood depot used to be on the north side, but it's further away than the building in the photo. I don't guess there's a Sanborn map of that area.
     
  6. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    I saw the article in the StL P-D, aka "the Peoples Daily Worker". :p

    Good article, showing the really neat house they built out of the original depot, with some significant additions. Nice shot of Don and Maria Kukla in the article, the owners. They have pulled together a collection of background history on the station.

    Remember that article about the lady station agent at that depot who lived there in the building in the late 1920's? The pics of her rooms looked quite a bit different than the present-day Kukla house! I sent that article, plus the one showing how the Frisco by-passed the tunnel, to the Kukla's. The SLSF cut through the hill to the south of the tunnel, relocated the tracks, and left the tunnel standing. Still there today, but, as was noted above, the entrances are blocked off.

    Regarding a Windsor Springs depot - might that have been another commuter stop? Though, as you say, it would be pretty close to the Kirkwood stop - maybe a half-mile? I'll pull a Frisco commuter TT that I have in my files and see if they show stops at Windsor Springs, Kirkwood, etc.

    Ken
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 28, 2009
  7. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Don - Bingo!

    I have a June 21, 1931 Frisco St Louis Suburban Service timetable - St Louis Union Station in and out to Pacific.

    There is indeed a stop at both Kirkwood and Windsor Springs. So you do see a depot in your picture taken at Geyer Road!

    In order, moving west from Union Station, there were commuter stops at:
    Tower Grove, Arloe, Gratiot, Lindenwood, Shrewsbury, Old Orchard, South Webster, Webster Groves, Glendale, Oakland, Fair Lawn, Kirkwood, Windsor Springs, Osage Hills, Keyes Summit, Valley Park, Ranken, Morschels, Tyson, Mincke, Cresent, Deicke, Famous, Eureka, St Stephens, Allenton, Dozier and Pacific.

    Ken
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 28, 2009
  8. choochoo63

    choochoo63 New Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Back in 2006 when I posted virtually the same question about the location of the Kirkwood depot I guess some of our members were on the extra board and there were few replies.

    However, this time the replies really contained some good stuff and I want to thank all who replied to shed some revealing information about the Kirkwood depot(s).
     
  9. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Glad we could be of help.

    Keep asking. We all learn more about the Frisco when we research questions here on frisco.org.

    Ken
     
  10. WindsorSpring

    WindsorSpring Member

    Could we see the photo? I am trying to picture where the Windsor Springs depot might have been in relation to the way things are now. The 1954 Kirkwood USGS quadrangle shows a small building on the north side of the tracks on Harrison Avenue halfway between Geyer and Kirkwood Road, but that is pretty far from Geyer so it is not likely going to show up on a photograph of a train crossing Geyer.
     
  11. frisco1522

    frisco1522 Staff Member Staff Member

    This is maddening, as I know that has to be a depot and it almost looks like a train order signal in front of it, but the shot isn't clear enough to really tell.
    It would be just about where the 1954 Kirkwood map said it was. Sure wish I could find a better shot of it.
     

    Attached Files:

    mountaincreekar likes this.
  12. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Neat shot Don! Spic and Span Frisco polish on 1512.

    That sure looks like the commuter depot to me in the background! Those commuter stops were not far apart in many cases per the TT.

    Ken
     
  13. WindsorSpring

    WindsorSpring Member

    Very nice picture indeed! Thank you for posting it. The train behind 1512 has clearly crossed to the west side of Geyer Road. The diverging of the tracks in the foreground show that. I do note the little hip-roofed building in the background behind the train. It is on the east side of Geyer, but it is hard to tell whether it is north or south of the tracks.

    The crossing at Geyer and Big Bend is complex and angles on things looking east along the tracks can be confusing. I would put the location of the building in the picture at the rear of the train on what is now an empty triangle of land north of Big Bend and east of Geyer but on the south side of the tracks.

    The 1893 Official Guide says "Kirkwood" is at m.p. 12.7 and "Windsor Springs" is at 13.0, a mere 0.3 miles apart. Picking points off the USGS 1954 map shows the distance from Kirkwood Road (Lindbergh) and the crossing of Big Bend to be about 0.5 miles. I guess rounding mileposts to the nearest tenth mile can separate the two stations by 0.4 miles and that would just about fit the depot in the triangle. The railroad continues to maintain that land by mowing it a couple times in the summer. The only occupants are a couple power transmission poles and a groundhog or two.

    I believe there is a milepost 13 located on the railroad, but it is closer to Harrison Ave than it is to Geyer Road, and that point is a short ways east of the open land.

    It has been fun to learn about the "neighborhood" on this site; I will come back to read and talk about more.
     
    mountaincreekar likes this.
  14. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Hard to tell for sure, but per the alignment of the train, it looks to me that the building (depot) is on the north side of the tracks.

    Ken
     
  15. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    I'm wondering where the South Webster commuter depot was sited - the one between Old Orchard and Webster Groves? We know where those latter two were. Webster Groves, of course, is still there.

    Anybody have any ideas?

    Same question about the Glendale, Oakland and Fairlawn commuter depots?

    Ken
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 3, 2009
  16. WindsorSpring

    WindsorSpring Member

    I just got back from the Kirkwood Public Library and a look at the St. Louis County Plat Book for 1909. It has a lot of answers.

    South Webster station was where Selma Avenue crossed the Frisco tracks. This is about four blocks west of Old Orchard following Big Bend (Bompart/Edgar, Plymouth and Selma). It is about five blocks east of the Main Webster Groves Station.

    The plat books show the Windsor Springs station was on the north side of the tracks in 1909, but was west of Geyer Road in the angle formed by the tracks and Big Bend. The picture of 1512 and its train at that location earlier in the thread appears to be crossing Geyer road around the fourth or fifth car. If the station is still in the 1909 location, the train is hiding it. If the building behind the train is the station, then it was moved east of Geyer Road by 1930. This calls for more research!
     
    mountaincreekar likes this.
  17. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Wow! Great info. Thanks for doing the research.

    Ken
     
  18. WindsorSpring

    WindsorSpring Member

    It was great fun looking it up.

    As for the other Kirkwood Station locations on the Frisco, my source right now is a map of 1909 Kirkwood the Bopp (Funeral) Chapel put as an insert to the Webster-Kirkwood Times in 1999. It reproduces the 1909 plat-book map, though not in color.

    From the west:
    Windsor Spring Station - north of the tracks and just west of Geyer Road.
    South Kirkwood Station - North of the tracks on the west side of Webster (now Kirkwood Road in Kirkwood, but Lindbergh everywhere else!)
    Fairlawn Station - North side of the tracks between the Missouri Pacific Carondelet Line and Holmes Avenue. The Carondelet line no longer crosses the former SL-SF tracks and the part south of the tracks is now Grant's Trail.
    Oakland Station - South Side of the tracks on the east side of Sappington Road.

    Periodicals from the Kirkwood Historical Society did not have pictures of any of these stations that I could find with a quick reading. It will be fun to check the Society to see what they may have. The similar organization in Webster Groves may be worth looking up, too.

    "Newly retired and all this time on my hands..."
     
    mountaincreekar likes this.
  19. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    That was a pretty good commuter service the Frisco had in the '20's and '30's! For people living in Kirkwood or Webster, it was easy to get downtown.

    Today we have narrow lane & crowded I-44, torn up I-64/US-40, and a broke Metrolink!

    Ken

    ps - However, we live in Frontenac, close to the newly opened, newly rebuilt segment of I-64 between I-270 and I-170. NICE!
     
  20. WindsorSpring

    WindsorSpring Member

    The Kirkwood Historical Society has a copy of a "St. Louis Countian" article from January 6, 1949 about moving the Kirkwood Frisco station from the north side of the tracks at Kirkwood Road to the south side.

    This was to accommodate construction of a lumber and hardware store (Hill-Behan Lumber) on the site north of the tracks. A spur was constructed for deliveries.

    The article said the Frisco building had originally been at Anaconda, MO from 1915 to 1930, then was moved to Kirkwood. From 1940 on, a Mr. E. J. Sutterfield was the agent. He had been agent in Anaconda, so he had to be familiar with the building!

    The article also mentioned there was a two-story station building prior to 1930, but I did not catch what happened to it.

    There was some mention that the Kirkwood station did offer commuter ticket sales, but by the time of the move in 1949 it only did freight business, though trains apparently did stop to pick up commuters there as late as 1949.
     
    mountaincreekar likes this.

Share This Page