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Thread: Neal TRAINZ Steam for Frisco

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    Default Neal TRAINZ Steam for Frisco

    Dricketts mentioned a couple days ago "I've been wanting to reskin any of Ben Neal's steam locos for Trainz that the SLSF might have used," and then encouraged us to look at the www.steammachine.com for examples. (See thread http://www.frisco.org/vb/showthread....y-Frisco-Steam! posting #8)

    Since Ben Neal has done lots of very nice work, a single reply (or probably even a single thread) will not do the subject justice.

    Starting with a good, simple, quick one seemed a good idea. His USRA Light 2-8-2 is very close to a Frisco engine (driver diameter, cylinders and t. e.) since the Frisco 40xx locomotives were built to that specification, though they were altered pretty quickly (http://www.frisco.org/vb/showthread....the-USRA-Mikes especially post 2).

    The attached picture shows the "as is" Neal USRA Light 2-8-2 leading a train of tank cars. Compare it with
    http://www.frisco.org/vb/attachment....1&d=1129771132

    They look close enough. Neal's headlight is pretty close to the right place though it is not a visored Pyle-National. So is the bell in the right place. However, a few of the other details are not the same, (pipes, ladders, no Coonskin, domes, smaller stack, tender coal bunker needs raised sides) but it is a decent re-skin starting point in the absence of a more exact model.

    This has been an interesting exercise. As a Neal fan, I have many of his locomotives, so it will be fun to examine others with a "Frisco eye."

    George Nelson
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Neal_USRA_Mikado_2.jpg  

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    Default Re: Neal TRAINZ Steam for Frisco

    Thanks for starting the thread George.

    So is Neal's USRA Light 2-8-2 the only model that might be suitable for a Frisco skin?

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    Default Re: Neal TRAINZ Steam for Frisco

    USRA 4-8-2 Light Mountain

    Well, some are better than others. I was going to reject the USRA Light Mountain 4-8-2 out of hand as a base for the 1500-class Mountains. Inspection of the attached screenshot gives a very good reason (lettered for MoP, for heaven's sake!).

    However, the specifications are fairly close. Drivers are 69" for both, though the cylinders on Neal's model are 27 x 30 while the 1500-class had 26 x 28. The effect of this is to change the attachment point for the rods relative to the wheel centers. 1500s had slightly higher tractive effort, 56,800 vs. 54,000 for the USRA 4-8-2 Neal model.

    As with the 2-8-2, the headlight and bell are in the right place. The two appliances are just not the right brands. There is no coonskin, either. The 1500 smokebox front on 1502 in the photo http://www.frisco.org/vb/attachment....2&d=1143033744 is a bit flatter than on the Neal model as well.

    Tender details are different. The Neal model sports a coal tender while 1502 burns oil. Aside from that, overall proportions appear close. Deftly-applied "Directoire Striping" and the right numbering type face could distract from those discrepancies.

    Doing that might yield a credible and reasonably-acceptable re-skin. The coonskins create a problem. A quick thought might be to create a skinnable coonskin mesh, then attach it with the PEV attach utility. This also might work for the Pyle-National headlights. Some experimentation is needed on this front.

    BTW, thanks in advance to dricketts for the heavyweight coaches and the RPO in the attachment!

    George
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Neal_USRA_Mountain.jpg  
    Last edited by WindsorSpring; 08-08-2012 at 02:52 PM. Reason: minor wording change; give proper credit

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    Default Re: Neal TRAINZ Steam for Frisco

    The trailing trucks on the Mike and Mountain are different, too. Those are different dependencies, so this leads to a simpler (yeah, right!) correction: make a new one and use it in place of the USRA lmount b1 (kuid:96914:504781) on the mountain. Do the same for usra_lmike_b1 (kuid:96914:504791) on the Mikado.

    There surely are more things to do!

    George

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    Default Re: Neal TRAINZ Steam for Frisco

    Unfortunately I'm not well versed on the different nuances of steam power but I do know I need to find some more steam to run on my Highline route.

    So if I'm following everyone correctly, the USRA Light 2-8-2 and USRA Light Mountain 4-8-2 would be the best candidates for reskinning without major mesh additions. You know I did a Frisco version of the heavy 2-8-2 then realized a few months later it was not the correct choice for the SLSF.

    Maybe if I skin a couple different running numbers of each I could have a semi realistic running session of pure steam on my High Line route. What do ya think?


    P.S.
    I've got some new screen shots of my v-scale route I'll be posting soon. I think they're pretty good and hopefully some of the new scenery will be recognized.
    Last edited by dricketts; 08-08-2012 at 02:29 PM.

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    Default Re: Neal TRAINZ Steam for Frisco

    Neal offers a wealth of steam. I am no expert compared to many on frisco.org, but remember some of their comments on models and locomotives over the years. Hopefully, some of the older heads will add to this thread. Meanwhile, I hope to work my way through Mr. Neal's oeuvre to give my 2 cents worth on how well each fits Frisco. I want to do that, anyway for my own education. Collias Frisco Power will be open to my left and the mouse will be in the right hand!

    George Nelson

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    Default Re: Neal TRAINZ Steam for Frisco

    Sounds good. I might start working on those 2-8-2's and 4-8-4's tonight.

    What about the Heavy 57" 2-8-2 Mikado. Would that be suitable for a Frisco reskin?




    Last edited by dricketts; 08-08-2012 at 08:43 PM.

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    Default Re: Neal TRAINZ Steam for Frisco

    Dricketts asked: "What about the Heavy 57" 2-8-2 Mikado. Would that be suitable for a Frisco reskin?"

    Neal has two "Heavy 2-8-2's," the 2-8-2H and the 2-8-2M. Both have 57" drivers and 24 x 30 cylinders, so the wheels will be about 89-90% the size of the 63" drivers on the USRA-based 40xx and 1350-series 2-8-0 conversions as well as the 64" drivers on the 41xx and 42xx locomotives. Cylinders on the 41xx and 42xx are larger, too, at 27 x 32.

    For a quick comparison, see http://www.frisco.org/vb/attachment....3&d=1193973086

    Then look at the two attachments to see what the effect would be.

    My impression is that 4100 just looks bigger all around. It is no accident, for Frisco 2-8-2's were among the largest of that type. A re-skin of either of these may appear somewhat small pulling a train. Notice how the cab line of 4100 extended across its tender top is higher than the roof of the following box car while the same line on the screenshots intersects the car end. While this is an "apples-to-oranges" comparison because the box car heights may not be the same, it illustrates the proportions.

    In addition, Neal's 2-8-2H has the headlight in the wrong place and the 2-8-2M has no bell, though one could possibly fix that.

    George Nelson
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2-8-2M.jpg   2-8-2H.jpg  

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    Default Re: Neal TRAINZ Steam for Frisco

    Great pics and info George. Thanks a bunch. I've been working on some reskins today. I hope I got the numbering correct with respect to the right loco. I'll post some screen shots soon.

    Update:

    What do you think? Did I get the numbers right on these two?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails trainz 2012-08-12 15-00-15-56.jpg   trainz 2012-08-12 14-53-30-09.jpg   trainz 2012-08-12 16-40-40-37.jpg   trainz 2012-08-12 16-18-11-70.jpg   trainz 2012-08-12 16-15-29-08.jpg  

    Last edited by dricketts; 08-12-2012 at 06:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Neal TRAINZ Steam for Frisco

    The 4-8-2 Mountain 1502 looks pretty good. We sure need to figure out how to make a coonskin number plate and a visored headlight, and then how to "kitbash" those onto meshes.

    Using 4009 for the 2-8-2 Mikado might be a better fit since the Frisco USRA light mikados were numbered in the 40## series.

    They both are nice, clean-looking re-skins.

    George

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    Default Re: Neal TRAINZ Steam for Frisco

    Consider a 4-6-0 as a re-skin possibility.

    Inspiration comes from Jim James recently posting the picture of Schenectady-built 739 here

    http://www.frisco.org/vb/showthread....ght=Frisco+739

    Locomotives 695-741 had 63 inch drivers and 21 x 28 inch cylinders. The prototypes for Neal's 4-6-0 models for TRAINZ have 62 inch drivers, so proportions would be close.

    The Schenectady locomotives generally had canted cylinders like those on 739. The Neal models do not, so the conscientious re-skinner should avoid numbers 727 - 741. The Brooks locomotives, 695-699 and 705-724 appear to have had vertical cylinders so numbering in this series would give a credible model.

    Compare the "Modern" 4-6-0M (kuid:96914:4842) to Brooks-built 709.

    http://www.frisco.org/vb/attachment....8&d=1129772473

    Proportions seem fairly good, though the boiler is the wrong shape. In addition, there are the usual complaints: bell in the wrong place, no visor on the headlight, no coonskin number plate and so on.

    Neal's inspirations were Baldwin-built, so a Baldwin product might fit better. Baldwin did build 742-799 in 5 lots in 1902-1903. Some were Vauclain compounds (different sized cylinders on different sides), though these were rebuilt simple. It is possible not all of these had 63 inch drivers, some could have had 69 inch drivers.

    Neal's "Heavy" 4-6-0H (kuid:96914:4840) is the second screenshot. Compare it to Baldwin 797

    http://www.frisco.org/vb/attachment....1&d=1148381487

    The same complaints apply to this model as to the other one. In addition, 797 has slide-valve cylinders and the model does not. However, Collias' Frisco Power shows 776 with piston-valve cylinders, albeit with Stephenson valve gear. It is possible most of the slide valve locomotives did eventually get piston-valves in rebuilds, though I would try to find a photo proving that was the case before picking a number.

    The tenders are not quite right for either of the models, but that is a common problem and someone just might model a more suitable one someday.

    However, if one accepts the limitations, I think either one of the 4-6-0s could be the base for a reasonable re-skin if one views the scene from afar!

    As an aside, it might be tempting to number reskins in the 1100 series because photos exist of their use on the "High Line." I would discourage this because they had 69" drivers, so the Neal models wheels would look a bit smaller than they should.

    George
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 4-6-0M.jpg   4-6-0H.jpg  

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    Default Re: Neal TRAINZ Steam for Frisco

    Thanks for the wealth of information.

    Is the USRA Light 2-8-2 and the 2-8-2 Mikado the same model? Or... Ben modeled a USRA Light 2-8-2 and the Frisco used a 2-8-2 Mikado which is close in appearance? Sorry. Like I said I've got a lot to learn about steam.

    I actually did three of the USRA Light 2-8-2's. So your saying use 40## series for them? How high did the numbers go?

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    Default Re: Neal TRAINZ Steam for Frisco

    The Frisco had four different 2-8-2's (4000's, 4100's, 4200's and 1350's) and they were all different and I don't think any of them were actual "USRA's" as such. I think the 4000's were the closest. Some of the steam gurus on here can probably clarify this better than I can (I tell them apart by their numbers ).

    Tom G.

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    Default Re: Neal TRAINZ Steam for Frisco

    The Neal model you want to re-skin to get close to a Frisco 4000 2-8-2 Mikado is his "USRA Light 2-8-2," kuid:96914:4790.

    This one gets closest in driver diameter and cylinder size to one the Frisco actually used.

    Frisco's other 2-8-2 locomotives were just too big for a re-skin of any of the Neal 2-8-2's to act as a stand-in. It is too bad, for there are 4 in all: USRA Light, Baldwin Heavy 2-8-2H (kuid:96914:4880), Baldwin Heavy 2-8-2M (kuid:96914:4882) and the Baldwin Light 2-8-2 (kuid:96914:4820). The "Baldwin Light 2-8-2" with its 48" diameter drivers is way too small. It would make admirable light-duty power for some connecting short line, though.

    George Nelson

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    Default Re: Neal TRAINZ Steam for Frisco

    2-8-0 Consolidations

    Neal has 3 standard gauge 2-8-0 Consolidations: "Baldwin medium 2-8-0M" (kuid:96914:4860), "Baldwin medium 2-8-0H" (kuid:96914:55201) and the "NP F1 2-8-0 485" (kuid:96914:4850).

    The two Baldwin 2-8-0's have 50 inch drivers, so they would be too small and probably unsatisfactory as starters for a Frisco re-skin since Frisco 2-8-0's after the 1920's had 57 or 63 inch drivers.

    The NP F1 has 51 inch drivers (see attachment) and it looks similar to a picture of 2732 on p 21 of Lloyd Stagner's Steam Locomotives of the Frisco Line. The Stagner photo is from 1912 and the photo's caption states the locomotive was retired in 1916!

    George
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails NP485.jpg  
    Last edited by WindsorSpring; 08-13-2012 at 03:50 PM. Reason: Attach screenshot, clarification

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    Default Re: Neal TRAINZ Steam for Frisco

    4-6-2 Pacifics

    Neal offers three standard gauge 4-6-2 Pacifics in the collection of steam locomotives for TRAINZ.

    The first is the "NYC K-11 4-6-2" (kuid2:96914:4760:2). This "stocky" one could be a base for one of the Pacifics in the series from 1015 - 1039 as built because it has 69 inch drivers and 26 x 26 cylinders. Frisco Power says the Frisco locomotives had 69 inch drivers and 26 x 28 cylinders. Let us ignore the fact Baldwin built the prototypes and the model is an Alco product! A look at the attachment and then at the Kansas City 1936 picture of 1017 in http://condrenrails.com/Frisco/Frisc..._Loco_Pixs.htm shows at least the domes are almost in the right place on the model! Frisco rebuilt some of the locomotives with larger 73 inch drivers, so modelling time is an important consideration.

    The other two offerings are variations on Savanna & Atlanta 750. One is painted for excursions, "S&A 4-6-2 750 excursion" (kuid:96914:55750), and the other is the as-built locomotive, "S&A 4-6-2 750" (kuid:96914:752). The S&A prototype had 69 inch drivers and 22 x 26 inch cylinders, so these might be good starting points for Frisco Pacifics in the 1000 - 1014 range. Frisco locomotives in that group had 69 inch drivers and 21 x 26 inch cylinders. Rebuildings changed the appearance of the Frisco engines over time, so either one of these could be reasonably close for a given era. The "excursion" loco (see S&A_750_EX.jpg) almost has a "Frisco" look to it because the headlight and domes are sort of in the right places. Look at photo of 1000 on Dr. Condren's site for comparison with the screenshots.

    George Nelson
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails NYC K-11.jpg   S&A_750_EX.jpg   S&A_750_2tn.jpg  

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    Default Re: Neal TRAINZ Steam for Frisco

    Thanks again George for the additional info. I have the rest of the week off so I hope to complete a few more skins. In the meantime how do these look? Do I have the numbers correct given what we have to work with in Neal's models?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails trainz 2012-08-14 13-08-51-66.jpg   trainz 2012-08-14 13-11-57-11.jpg   trainz 2012-08-14 13-10-28-49.jpg   trainz 2012-08-14 13-12-35-22.jpg   trainz 2012-08-14 13-11-02-91.jpg  


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    Default Re: Neal TRAINZ Steam for Frisco

    The re-skins look great!

    Putting the gold stripes on 1509 and 1522 will move them in a more Frisco-direction.
    The round Baldwin builder's plate is visible below the stack. Skinning the smokebox gives an opportunity to put the Nichols Siphon heart plate, too. See http://www.frisco.org/vb/attachment....0&d=1293495730 .

    George
    Last edited by WindsorSpring; 08-14-2012 at 09:51 PM. Reason: correct a term

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    Default Re: Neal TRAINZ Steam for Frisco

    Quote Originally Posted by WindsorSpring View Post
    The re-skins look great!

    Putting the gold stripes on 1509 and 1522 will move them in a more Frisco-direction.
    The round Baldwin builder's plate is visible below the stack. Skinning the smokebox gives an opportunity to put the Nicholson Siphon heart plate, too. See http://www.frisco.org/vb/attachment....0&d=1293495730 .

    George
    That's the first I've heard or noticed the gold stripe. Was that only used on 1509 and 1522? ...again I'm pretty ignorant to anything steam still. Are you saying the Baldwin plate should or shouldn't be there? Where is the smoke box?

    Edit: I finally found some pics of the 4-8-2's. How does this sound for a bit of accuracy to the prototypes. Keep one as is but change to #1506. Change the other to 1508 and and add the gold pinstripping.
    Last edited by dricketts; 08-14-2012 at 08:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Neal TRAINZ Steam for Frisco

    Alright so the striping was gold but what about the numbering on the tender and the loco? Did it remain white or did it very from each locomotive?
    Last edited by dricketts; 08-14-2012 at 09:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Neal TRAINZ Steam for Frisco

    Gold Stripes

    Frisco passenger steam locomotives had a gold stripe pattern on the tender and under the cab windows. Old hands will have to give the exact beginning and end dates. The beginning was around the mid-1920's when the 1500 - class 4-8-2 Mountains were delivered. Mike Condren's collection of 4-6-2 Pacific photos (see the link in post #16) has the gold striping on more than half of the locomotives. I am not sure whether the striping continued to the end of steam use on passenger trains.

    Nichols Heart Plate

    When the locomotive was fitted with a Nichols Thermic Siphon, they put a heart-shaped plate on the smoke box in front of the locomotive under the stack near the builder's plate. Follow the link to the picture of 1505 (http://www.frisco.org/vb/attachment....0&d=1293495730)
    and look under the stack just above the running boards right behind the headlight. There is a round disc plate. That is the Baldwin Builder's plate. Above that are two rectangular plates and the Nichols plate is above those. I incorrectly referred to it as "Nicholson," but it should be "Nichols," and I will edit post #16 to fix that.

    Go ahead and put stripes on both 4-8-2's. They were the pride of the roundhouse (and still are), so "when ya got it, flaunt it!"

    George

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    Default Re: Neal TRAINZ Steam for Frisco

    During the time of tender and cab striping, the numbers and FRISCO were in gold on the passenger steam locomotives.

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    Default Re: Neal TRAINZ Steam for Frisco

    Quote Originally Posted by WindsorSpring View Post
    Gold Stripes

    Go ahead and put stripes on both 4-8-2's. They were the pride of the roundhouse (and still are), so "when ya got it, flaunt it!"

    George
    Thanks again for the info George. If I understand correctly then freight locos didn't have the stripes. I'd like to skin one of each if it's historically accurate for 1506 and 1508. I found a pic of 1506 and it sure doesn't look like it had stripes. I'm close to posting some pics here with the stripes.

    Edit:

    Here a couple of pics. What does everyone think? It's getting closer...

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by dricketts; 08-14-2012 at 11:37 PM.

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    Default Re: Neal TRAINZ Steam for Frisco

    By golly, I think you've got it!

    The numbers look good and the shade looks right, too.

    Did you use a type face for the numbers? Which one?
    What type face did you use for "FRISCO" by the cab?
    Some of the previous Frisco skinnings used a bold type face for the numbers that ended up somewhat "gloppy." Yours looks just right.

    I guess you have to mess around with shades to get the right shade and luminosity of the gold color, too. Do you do that in Windows Paint? The shade of gold looks very good.

    George

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    Default Re: Neal TRAINZ Steam for Frisco

    I used Engravers MT for the numbers. It's not perfect but it's pretty close. I've been using that font for all my reksins. For the "FRISCO" I used Arial Rounded MT Bold.

    I'm using Photoshop 5. I had to play around with the luminosity, shading, contrast, hue, etc. a lot more than a normal reskin. Ben Neal has applied the numbers and logos to all his locos / tenders in a unique way using alpha channels. This has some pros and cons. The pros, he uses the same file for all his numbering. Once you have your colors satisfactory you can simply change a few digits in the psd file, convert it back to a tga file and away you go. The same file can be used on all his work with some minor changes. The cons, I'm not good yet working with alpha channels so it was a lot of trial and error for me. Someone that knew what they were doing could have knocked it out in a fraction of the time.

    I'm going to leave 1506 in the basic white lettering. I need something for freight.

    I can send you what I've done so far if you like. I might approach davesnow from the Trainz forums about creating a couple of meshes to add to the existing one. Like headlight shade and such. I'm assuming it can be done with PEV's tools.

    I think I'll try skinning some of the smaller steamers now you suggested. I like anything Frisco but I really want to have some steamers in my collection that could have commonly been seen on the High Line.

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