After the Pullman Company was forced to make concessions to the railroads I believe the Frisco received several cars. If so, where these cars lettered and numbered for the Frisco or did they retain their Pullman lettering, etc. I have some Brancline heavy weight pullmans that I would like to put Frisco on but can’t find any evidence that it would be prototypical. If the cars where not re-lettered does anyone know what cars where assigned to the Frisco (name wise)?
Here's a start.
That was a good start!
Where any of those cars lettered for the Frisco or did they retain their Pullman lettering?
A 1956 roster lists only the following heavy weight cars. The roster states that they have been painted red and silver (shadow striped). All the cars were acquired from Pullman in December of 1948 as a result of the 1940 anti-trust lawsuit, and leased back to Pullman. The roster lists these cars as Frisco cars, so I think one can safely assume that they were lettered Frisco.
The Frisco owned more than these 12 heavy weight cars, and leased them back to Pullman. I didn't compile a complete list of Frisco-own Pullmans but for example, McZena, 12-1, Plan 3410, was retired in June, 1962, and Badger State, 10-1-2, Plan 2585, was retired in July 1962.
It still leaves the question of how were these other cars lettered unanswered. Will continue to poke around.
Note that the Magdelin Tower was rebuilt into baggage car 446. The car later saw MOW service as a tool car on the Springfield wrecker. The distinctive roof line was easy to spot.
Last edited by Karl; 10-14-2006 at 11:42 AM.
In the case of the Pullmans assigned to trains 709-710, they were 10sec 3dbr cars "Villa Superb" and "Villa Peerless". They were originally painted in the red-silver shadowline scheme, but later simplified to just red and silver but without the shadowlining. They had "Frisco" centered on the letterboard and small "Pullman" above the vestibules. I would assume that the other Pullmans were similarly lettered.
At the train show in Fort Worth last week end (May 27th) a vendor had numerous lose leaf photo albums full of train pictures. Several contained Frisco passenger, steam, diesels, depot, and equipment. While browsing through them I found a picture of “Robert F Hoke” painted in red and silver (no striping). As Gordon Mott indicated about the Pullmans assigned to trains 709-710 ("Villa Superb" and "Villa Peerless") this car had Frisco centered and Pullman to the left and right of the vestibule doors. Unfortunately, there is no date or location on the picture, but it looks like it might be Oklahoma City. Anyway, I was glad to find a picture of one more Frisco owned Pullman lettered Frisco.
Another interesting picture was of the Frisco passenger train to Pensacola, Florida, arriving Pensacola August 9, 1942, with Frisco 1108 and four cars (1 baggage/express/RPO and three passenger cars, one of which looks like a Pullman or buffet car). Because both the North and South bound trains were nocturnal with early morning arrival and late afternoon departure from Pensacola, pictures of this train are hard to find.
To clarify, I have seen enough photos of Frisco HW Pullmans to feel confident that all of those that were painted in red and silver, whether with shadowlines or the later version without, all carried "Frisco" in the letterboard with small "Pullman" near the vestibules (except McZena, a Plan 3410A 12-1 which was Frisco-owned but lettered for the Texas Special). HOWEVER, there were quite a number of other Pullman cars that were transferred to Frisco ownership in the 1948 divesture that, as far as I know, remained in Pullman green or perhaps even in TTG. I suspect, but cannot prove, that these retained their original Pullman lettering.
If the original objective of this thread was to support putting gold "Frisco" in the letterboard of Walthers Pullman green cars, it has not done that and, frankly, I think you would be on thin ice so doing without someone coming up with a photo of a prototype to prove it.
"If the original objective of this thread was to support putting gold "Frisco" in the letterboard of Walthers Pullman green cars, it has not done that and, frankly, I think you would be on thin ice so doing without someone coming up with a photo of a prototype to prove it."
No it was not.
The Branchline cars were/are to be painted red/silver with imitation shadow lining using ATSF decals. I had been looking for a picture to confirm what you had said concerning the red/silver cars and was letting the group share in the information.
Has anyone discovered a Pullman assignment car list for Frisco cars - these were published about every six months by D. R. Culver of the Pullman Company and sent to transporation depts, passenger traffic depts of each railroad. I need to know what Frisco cars were assigned to Pullman Line 3415 (Chicago-Oklahoma City) at any time prior to the Line's cutback to St. Louis-Oklahoma City.
You wrote "The Branchline cars were/are to be painted red/silver with imitation shadow lining using ATSF decals....". I plan to do the same with an undecorated Walthers 8-1-2 to create a "PGT Beaureguard" or "Robert F. Hoke". I, too, have the Santa Fe shadowline decals.
I would be very interested in learning how successful you were in using the shadowline decals. I have not gotten up the courage yet to attempt it myself and anything that you could share from your experience would certainly be appreciated. Incidentally, what/whose red are you using? Also, what did/will you do regarding decals for the lettering on your car? Unfortunately the Oddballs set is of very limited use as it only provides the "FRISCO" for the letterboard (and even that is, I think, marginally too large though useable) but does not include the "Pullman" necessary for near the vestibules nor, of course, any appropriate car names.
The first car I did was a Rivarossi Pullman. I used Testors 1104 dark red and Testors 1146 silver to paint the car. This is the paint that I have always used in the past. For the striping I used Microscale RH-124 2in. Gold striping. I had to put each strip on individually and splice them together to fit the length of the car. It looks good, but not great, mainly because the stripes are to light (color wise) for the car. I used Walthers decals (I believe they are out of stock) to letter the car. The Walthers decals do include the small letter ‘Pullman’ which I placed by the vestibule doors. As for the name of the car I made one up.
After doing this car I started looking for a better method of putting the stripes on the car and either through this group, or one of the others, the Santa Fe Passenger car – Shadow Stripe decal was mentioned. (87-1243). I then emailed Rail Graphics and sent them some samples of print and ask if they could make decal sets with passenger car names only (and a few needed car numbers). I now have about 15 different car names in red and gold, including Beauregard and Hoke. I am not totally pleased with the decals but at least I have names. If you want to email me off list with your address I will be glad to send you enough decals to do those two cars. (red & gold).
The two Branchline cars were painted Pullman green and lettered for East Copper and Pawnee. I decided not to paint them red and silver. I am now working on a Walthers paired window modernized turtle back coach. I don’t think the Frisco had any coaches like this but I had it left over from another project and thought I would give it a try using the Santa Fe Shadow Stripes. I just finished painting it today, sprayed with gloss coat and am waiting for it to dry before putting the decals on. I did notice that the stripes for the Santa Fe are spaced different for the top and bottom of the car. I don’t know if this is kosher for the Frisco cars. If not it will present a problem. When I get it done I will let you know how it turned out. For this car I used Scalecoat ATSF red.
The car that I just finished was diner lounge ‘Kansas City’, used on the ‘Kansas City Florida Special’. For this car I used two Atheran turtle back coaches and one Atheran streamlined coach. The length of the car is 82 feet coupler to coupler (inside 79 feet). I could not find the dimensions so I worked off the pictures from the various books. For the corrugation I used Plastruct N scale corrugated siding. I painted the car with Scalecoat ATSF red and Scalecoat silver. I wanted to letter the car Birmingham, but Kansas City is in the Oddball decal sets so I used it.
I had originally bought the above coach and a Walthers 36 chair dinner for this project, but decided I did not want to cut those cars up and went with the Atheran option. BTW, the Walthers 36 chair diner is a close match to the 641, 642, 643 diners.
I have used Testors 1104, Floquil ATSF red, and Scalecoat ATSF red. I like Scalecoat because it leaves a good glossy finish that you can put decals on with out an additional gloss coat of paint. Floquil seems to be the paint of chose for most hobbyist and can be found at most hobby shops. However, I think I am going to stay with Testors (for streamlined passenger cars and E7/8’s). I like the color and the way it coats better than the other paints. But, as I said, I have used all three paints and if I put the different painted cars side by side you can not tell the difference.
Maybe this has already been discussed and I over looked it, but, where the dining Kansas City, Birmingham, and Memphis rebuilt from the 641, 642, & 643?
Hope this helps,
Below are some attachments of a few engines and cars that I have modified and or painted.
The first is a Broadway Limited E7 (2002) that I painted and lettered for the Meteor. I added a number board and used corrugated sidding from 'Union Station Products'. I could not resist putting Frisco on the side of the engine.
The third image is a Model Power E7 (2000) that had all the grabs etc., chiselled off and replaced with metal, lower head light added, pilot coupler hole filled in, and can motor on a modifed Atheran SD45 frame. Behind, in the distance, are two Proto 2000 E8's that I painted and lettered.
The fourth & sixth is an image of dining car Kansas City
The fith image is of OK Streamlined PS corrugated sidded metal (extruded aluminium) cars. These are nice cars, but don't have a lot of detail.
I hope you enjoy the images,
Very impressive work. I particularly like your "Kansas City".
In an earlier post, you said you used a Rivarossi Pullman. Is that the regular Rivarossi Heavyweight Pullman that comes with a set? I picked up a set cheap a while ago, and I'm trying to decide what to do with them.
Hello Jerome--I see your post is nearly a year old (I just joined the FL this moring 8-31-07), but I do have some info re: Frisco lettering on HW Pullmans if you're still interested. I have a few grainy photos ca. 1960 of some Frisco Pullmans stored at Springfield. I'm not sure of the configurations of the cars 8-1-2, 10-1-2 etc. But from photos here's what I have:
--P G T Beauregard, Magdalin Tower, Villa Peerless, Norwich University and Drake University are in the r/s scheme, no shadow stripe. Large "Frisco" centered in letterboard, car name centered in pier panel below. Small "Pullman" at each end of letterboard has been painted over.
--Rathaus Tower, Smith College and Villa Superb same as above, except small Pullman lettering still showing.
--#1810 (which I believe is ex-Trinity College) is painted r/s, with no shadow stripe and has large "Frisco" centered on letterboard. The small "Pullman" name at each car end and the car name have been painted over and the number "1810" with very small "SL-SF" reporting marks beneath are centered over eack truck.
These last cars are painted Pullman Green:
--#1809 has only the numbers and small "SL-SF" centered over the trucks. The Pullman name and car name have been painted over (I suppose in Pullman Green).
--Lynafield, Laidlaw and McVille have the large Pullman name covered with what looks to be an aluminum panel with only the car name showing.
Last edited by TAG1014; 09-01-2007 at 06:39 PM.
Reason: Word left out of original message.
Gordon, bellow are images of the Walthers passenger car that I painted and lettered. The ‘shadow stripes’ went on easier than what I thought they would. But I had a hard time getting them to set account of air bubbles. After a couple of days and the use of a hair dryer and needle they did sung down. One of the things I learned is try making your splices at a rivet line. All in all, the decals turned out good. It does take two sets if you want the stripes on the top and bottom to be the same. Actually you could do three cars with four sets. BTW, the door step on the left side of the cars is just lose, not glued crooked. I did not notice it until I was looking at the picture.
Gary, thanks for the compliment on diner ‘Kansas City’. The Rivarossi car was a Heavyweight 10-1-2 (I believe). I picked it up at a hobby shop, used. I would assume it is the same as ones that come in the sets. It is a fairly easy car to disassemble and paint.
Tom, I would love (and I think others on the forum would also) to see the photos you have of the Pullman cars. Perhaps you can post the images for us. It would be invaluable to use modelers.
Lets see some other model passenger cars and passenger engines posted. Maybe to go along with Mikes's prototype posting for the month of September.
Here's a spread sheet of Frisco heavyweight Pullman cars I put together a few years ago. Doug
Thanks for sharing,
I purchased a CD of Frisco photos which contained a color photo of a HW sleeper (no info about the photos included). The car is clearly an 8Sec-DR-2Comp car. This would make it either the Robert F. Hoke, Rock Run, Rock Park, or the P. G. T. Beauregard. The car is painted red and silver with shadow lining, and lettered FRISCO with small PULLMAN at each vestibule. Unfortunately the car name is not legible. Earlier in this thread a photo of the Robert F. Hoke is mentioned as showing it as red and silver without shadowlining. Anyone have any idea which car this might be? Likewise in the book "Trackside Around St. Louis" page 105, a photo shows a 12Sec-2DB sleeper which would have to be Drake University or Norwich University. It is painted the same except no shadowlining. Again the car name is not legible. Any idea which car this is?
Larry--In my set of Frisco Pullman photos (some of which I soon hope to post) and I mentioned in my post below, the following Frisco Pullmans are painted in red and silver with no shadow line stripes:Magdalin Tower, Smith College, Villa Superb, Villa Peerless, P G T Beauregard, Rathaus Tower, Drake University, Norwich University and #1810 (ex-Trinity College) which has had car name painted over. There were others painted red/silver Robert F Hoke, Amherst College, and Drury College and maybe more?? I don't have a list handy as to what configuration there cars were (10-3, 12-2 etc.).
Most sources I've heard and read say that the red and silver Frisco Pullmans weren't shadow striped, but there was at least ONE that was--See: Marre and Sommers' "Frisco In Color" page 120 (coupled to HW diner "Birmingham")
I had forgotten about that photo in the "Frisco in Color" book. If you look closely, the car number is visible in the window, namely 69. In the book "Night Trains", the three sleepers on the KC-FS in March 1952 were S67 an 8Sec-5DBR sleeper, S68 a 14Rmt-4DBR sleeper, and car S69 a 10Sec-2BR-Comp sleeper. If car S69 was still the same type of car in July 1955 (date of Frisco in Color book photo), then the car would have to be a "College" series sleeper. And since my photo is an 8Sec-DR-2Comp car, that would suggest that there were at least two cars with shadowlining. Maybe we will figure this out eventually.
Maybe this will help--I have a copy of the Frisco 1956 passenger car assignment list which shows the HW cars painted red and silver and the trains they were assigned to:
--P G T Beauregard, Robert F Hoke--Trains 111-112
--Magdalen Tower, Rathaus Tower--Tr. 3-4
--Villa Peerless, Villa Superb--Tr. 9-709, 704-10
--Drake University, Norwich University--Tr. 3-303, 304-10
--Amherst College, Drury College, Smith College, Trinity College--All Trains 105-106.
Hi Larry--In the Frisco public time tables of the era, Car 69 is listed under KC-Florida Special Tr. 105-106 between KC-Birmingham (10 Sec., 2 Double Bedrooms, 1 Compt.). The 10-2-1 is still listed in the Aug. '58 time table.
I'm new to this group. I've been working on re-placement car sides for both Branchline and Walthers heavyweight passenger cars, for some time now.
Some time ago I was approached about doing re-placement car sides for lesser known, or smaller run Pullman heavyweights passenger equipment. I'm always looking for something different to do. And the Pullman Plan 4046 and sub classes University-White 12-2's seems to be a good starting point.
I'm presently working on Pullman Plan 4046, 4046a, and 4046b sub classes. I have made pilot sides of the Plan 4046b cars first and they are based on the Pullman floor plans in my collection. However I don't have any photo's of these of the two Frisco University Class 12-2's. And I was hoping someone in this group might have photo's of same, or point me in the right direction in obtaining same if possible. I have had some difficulty obtaining photo's of the other sub classes, account they were mostly use on night run passenger trains. At present I only have 5 photo's of the two earlier plans, 2 photo's of the Plan 4046, and three of the Plan 4046a cars. So any photo's of the Frisco cars would be a great step forward.
(Hopefully) this post shows SLSF "P. G. T. Beauregard" stored at Springfield ca 1963. Large Frisco name on letterboard, small "Pullman" name painted over. Photo by Jerry Moore (Pat Coughlin collection). If this post works, I have some more--If not, back to the drawing board...
(edit): See below which other cars painted as Beauregard.
(edit 8-29-10): After doing some more research, I've figured out this series of photos I had posted of the Frisco Pullmans stored at Springfield by the late Jerry Moore of Tulsa (From Pat Coughlin's collection) are actually from 1963. These cars were retired 6-63 (So it's AFTER that date) and the car "Magdalen Tower" is among the group. Magdalen Tower was rebuilt to baggage car 446 in 12-63, so the collection of pictures would be before THAT date.
Last edited by TAG1014; 08-29-2010 at 09:22 AM.
Reason: Add last line. Edited again 8-29-10.