St Louis and SAN FRANSISCO

[Karl]

On May 23 1890 the ATSF pruchased the Frisco, which owned 50% of the A&P RR. During the depression of 1893, the ATSF went into receivership, and when it was reorganized during 1895, the Frisco became an independent company once again. The Frisco would not reach its name-sake city, San Fransisco.

But during 1911, the Frisco and the ATSF agreed to a "Traffic Arrangement" for points west. The Avard Gateway would funnel traffic to the ATSF from midwestern points; Gulf Coast traffic would reach ATSF rails in Houston.

The Frisco established sales offices on the west coast to help take advantage of the new agreement.

[meteor910]

Karl -

Thanks for posting this. I'm wondering, did this "Traffic Arrangement" also allow ATSF access to the St Louis market in addition to SLSF access to the west?

I know through the years, based on my reading of ATSF history, the Santa Fe continually expressed a desire for better access to St Louis.

They finally have it now!

Ken

[Iantha_Branch]

I had no idea this went on. I had heard of the F9's being built for Cajoun Pass and the U25B's where first used out there also. But how long did this arrangement last?

[gjslsffan]

Interesting that this was going on 10-15 years before the QA&P had completed it's trackage to Floydada and the ATSF connection there, and the windfall that took place after that connection was made. As a youngster I saw many trains headed to and from the West, coast go thru Quanah.
Thanks for posting,
Tom

[Karl]

The 1911 issues the FEM are strangely quiet about the agreement. The issues do contain several requests from Biddle for "marketing strategies". Other texts are also silent.

I was intrigued by the line, "...within a reasonable time, high-class passenger service will be inaugurated." Could there have been the "San Fransisco Meteor"? It certainly raises the question of what might have been?

I have no doubt that the 1913 bankruptcy, put an end to the "arrangement" with the ATSF, and that road was once again denied access to the St Louis gateway. You are correct, the ATSF lusted mightily for access to St Louis. I remember that as late as the mid-60's rumors once again surfaced with regard to a ATSF-SLSF merger. It woundn't happen until the BN-ATSF merger.


Karl -

Thanks for posting this. I'm wondering, did this "Traffic Arrangement" also allow ATSF access to the St Louis market in addition to SLSF access to the west?

I know through the years, based on my reading of ATSF history, the Santa Fe continually expressed a desire for better access to St Louis.

They finally have it now!

Ken

[tmfrisco]

Karl, you are absolutely correct about ATSF "lusting" for access into St. Louis. In the late 70s no less than four railroads ran officer specials on the Frisco with the express purpose of possibly buying us. In addition to the BN, there were the ATSF, UP, and Southern. I never did understand why the ATSF let the BN win out, but in the end all of the railroads mentioned (with the exception of the UP) now use the Frisco tracks through outright ownership or through traffic agreements. The Frisco was very strategically placed to offer several arrangements. I have always believed that the ATSF actually stole the western part which, I think, was their original goal anyway. I have wondered what the picture would have been like had the Frisco been able to keep that portion of the grant. One thing I have not understood is that, for all of their lusting for St. Louis access, the BNSF is running fewer trains west out of St. Louis than the Frisco did. Thanks, Terry

[Joseph Toth]

About the time ATSF purchased the Frisco it also bought the Colorado Midland. It also was later lost account of the the Santa Fe´s over expansions. The CM remained a Santa Fe subsidiary and was never merged into the ATSF proper. Both ATSF and CM rostered the unusual 4-door center ice loading Hanrahan reefers. I am weak on Frisco´s historic freight car roster so who knows what the Frisco did for reefers? Did they roster their own or use the ones that were in the national freight car pools? All Frisco Folks remember the steel reefers that carried GARX reporting marks in the 50s. Even the QA&P had their own with a neat Transcontinental Cut-Off slogan if memeory serves me well?

About the time the Frisco-ATSF run-throughs were in operation in the early 60s the Santa Fe made a bid for Western Pacific. I seem to remember the news items in Trains Magazine. Had the ATSF retained the Frisco and Colorado Midland and built the CM line on to Salt Lake City and then tied it all together in the 1960s the railroad map would have produced a system from San Francisco to Pensacola that would have included the St. Louis gateway. If Frisco had disappeared way back yonder there wouldn´t be a bunch of Frisco Folks and frisco.org would never have been created. As painful as it is that the Frisco is now a modern Fallen Flag at least a lot of us remember the great player in the American rail scene that it was, up through the second generation of diesel power.

I accepted the transition from black and yellow diesels to red-orange and white but feel the cabooses should have remained tuscan red! Of course, "Fred" pretty much solved that issue.

Joe Toth
The Trinity River Bottoms Boomer

[meteor910]

Joe -

Long ago the Frisco had a few of their own reefers. Do a search on frisco.org; I seem to recall some pics being posted here and there. Not many pics exist of them.

The GARX cars you mentioned are, or were, available in HO from Branchline, both in the SLSF and QA&P versions. Very nice kits - though the trucks are wrong on the QA&P car. Both built in 1955. I just pulled my kit boxes - the QA&P is GARX 54009, kit number 1802, and the SLSF is GARX 50580, kit number 1809. They are not true reefers as they have no means of cooling their loads, but are instead insulated plug door boxcars, class RB. They handled pre-cooled loads, or loads that needed protection from temperature swings. Again, nice kits, in the Branchline "Blueprint Series".

Branchline made a lot of these kits, in several different road names. You see them now and then on eBay or at swap meets. I don't know if they are still available from Atlas/Branchline. They are well worth adding to your fleet if they match your era.

Ken

[Joseph Toth]

Ken -

Thanks for the reefer info! Despite my 10 thumbs I still want to construct a shelf layout along my 18 ft. livingroom wall in Proto 48! I put a post in the modeling pages in the O scale section. This my not be the proper place to ask here but how close are the Atlas-O diecast pulpwood cars and the US Hobbies brass versions to Frisco´s cars? Both models appear simular in appearance. I need to track down the number of cars that the Frisco rostered and the areas where they were used. I am surprised there aren´t many Frisco O scalers. I accept the "Tinplate" community too and modelers in all of the scales from Z to G! One Z scaler asked the question and though not a current post I will add my comments in the Z scale section soon.

Thanks to all the Frisco Folks who have commented or come to my assistance with my questions and malarky. I am an old head retired railroader and joining frisco.org has been one of the best things that has happened to me. In the event a historical society forms with annual dues I will sign up to be a charter member!

Joe Toth
The Trinity River Bottoms Boomer