What should the Frisco have purchased next?

[Iantha_Branch]

This ought to be interesting......

If the Frisco would not have been bought by BN and would have continued on into the 80's, what locomotive do you think they should have purchased next?
Notes: say it's 1981
The Frisco got there GP50's in O&W with Frisco (not BN) numbers.

Here's some that I think would make good candidates:
SD50
C30-7
GP39-2
More SD40-2's
More GP50's
Turn more GP7's into GP15-1's

[Jim James]

SD 40-2s are my favorite diesels.

[meteor910]

The experience with the Frisco GP50's would have likely ruled out any SD50's.

They probably would have replaced sick SD45's piecemeal with new SD40-2's or some of the new GE U-boats until the SD60 & higher models came along.

More GP15-1's? Maybe, but there were enough GP38's and 38-2's available to step down to fill the lighter duty needs as new road power came on.

But, who knows? Good question to ponder.

Ken

[Iantha_Branch]

The experience with the Frisco GP50's would have likely ruled out any SD50's.


I thought 790-799 were delivered to BN

[Sirfoldalot]

WGAS! Moot point. :mad:
F-3's get's my vote. :eek:

[meteor910]

I thought 790-799 were delivered to BN

Ethan - They were, but they were purchased by the SLSF prior to the merger. That's why they carried future SLSF numbers on the books (as you noted) until the green wave hit in 11/80. They were delivered starting in 12/80.

The GP50 was like the GP35 in many ways. The GP50's EMD 645 engine was stressed to its limit to get to its 3500HP just as the GP35's EMD 567 engine was to get to its 2500HP. Maintnenace dilemmas ensued with unacceptable regularity in both.

Ken

[FriscoFriend]

(1) The BN got rid of all 10 GP50's in fairly short order.

(2) The Frisco preferred 4 axle power and stick to that trend.

(3) Many of you will probably cringe at this, but I plan to look at neighboring similar roads purchases before I render my answer or opinion. The main comparison will be the MP, the KCS, and maybe the MKT. I can already predict where I think my findings will lead me and some of them are not in the poll. I am guessing I will find more GP15-1's, GP40-2's, more B30-7's to replace the aging U25b's, and the poll choice of SD40-2's (to replace the SD45's).

Stay tuned!

[gjslsffan]

Agreed, it seems the Frisco did not care for 6 axle trucks. Account rail wear, HP per axle.
SD40-2's were great units but just did not have the HP to maintain speeds in the higher MPH ranges that Frisco was famous for, so 4 axle units were great for the Frisco.
I doubt they would have went for the SD 50 either. Don't know if the production run of the GP 40-2's was finished by then or not, but I think the Frisco would have bought more if they could have. One would also like to think they would have taken to the GP 60's like a duck to water.
With the advent of self steering trucks (decreased rail wear), and the higher HP per axle, I also would think the Frisco would have jumped into the SD 70 market, spartan cabs of course. AC's I don't know, but I don't see the benefit to cost ratio for them on the Frisco.
With none of my choices being in the poll, the closest would be the venerable SD40-2.
my 2 cents
Tom

[Brad Slone]

For my two cents worth, I think had the Frisco lasted through the 80's and beyond I think they would have leaned towards the GP-60's for their time sensitive shipments i.e. piggyback and forth coming containers. Four B-B unit lashups similar to what to the ATSF and IC. However despite the Frisco preference of 4 axle power had they lasted long enough they would not be able to ignore EMD and GE going toward producing mainly six axle freight locomotives.

[Iantha_Branch]

One would also like to think they would have taken to the GP 60's like a duck to water.


I would agree to that, but I put the scenario at 1981, the GP60 didn't come into the picture till 1985.
As for the six axle's, there's always the B40-8 which started in 1988.

[gjslsffan]

As for the six axle's, there's always the B40-8 which started in 1988.

B40-8 is a 4 axle unit hence the B in the units class, and the (0-4-4-0) designation on the builders plate.
Not going to get into a "Worlds Tallest Midget" contest here. It's all speculation at the very best, one thing for sure is it doesn't matter now.
I do not know which model the carriers got rid of first, the B30-7's or the early phases of the GP 50's.
Both equally miserable in their longevity.
The later phases of GP 50's are still around as their HP ratings were dropped
in line with their performance capabilities.
I remember the early 80's (barely) and there was a recession going on.. not as bad as now, but bad enough.
That's was when the major carriers were scrapping/ selling not needed or problematic surplus power. Kinda like now. Only not much new power was bought back then on any large scale till the mid-late 80's.
With the traffic down turns that took place the carriers would have made do with what they had.
Nowadays with the auto-start, electronic fuel injection power that is available, the carrier's that can, will replace older more in-efficient power when possible. The $$ saved on fuel alone, will pay for the unit over it's life span I am told. I have not bought any locomotives lately, so can only report what was told to me.
The Frisco like many smaller well ran carriers, did not spend their $$ on power they didn't need.
up to 4 cents now

Tom

[HWB]

Given time I beleive the Frisco would have found the SD40-2 more than adequate for their needs and went back to EMD for more to replace the SD45 fleet.
When the GE B40-8 came out they would have looked long and hard at it. Santa Fe was buying them for TOFC trains and maybe the Frisco would have followed suit.

[FRISCO4503]

In my opinion, and in Answer to the question "What should the FRISCO have purchased Next?" THE BURLINGTON NORTHERN RAILROAD!

[gjslsffan]

HERE HERE!! Well said. :):)

[trainchaser007]

Well, this may not be popular, but I'm one who would prefer stream over diesels (since I don't have to operate them). Obviously my preference is not in the list. If SLSF is dead forever, I would love to see BNSF 4-8-2's & some BNSF challengers.

[Iantha_Branch]

[QUOTE=trainchaser007;29174I would love to see BNSF 4-8-2's & some BNSF challengers.[/QUOTE]

That would be nice to see, but do to this stupid orginazation called EPA BNSF wound't be able to build'em, they can't even order Dash 9's any more, it's all this GEVO stuff now.

[trainchaser007]

Well if steam polution is out of the question...how about a diesel that looks like a steam loco but is actually a diesel? If we can send people to the moon, why can't GE build a diesel loco that looks like 4-8-8-2? It would be a diesel but to the casual observer, it would appear to be steam...even put all the exhaust out the stack! Instead of the rods turning the drivers, let the drivers move the rods back and forth.

[Iantha_Branch]

Well if steam polution is out of the question...how about a diesel that looks like a steam loco but is actually a diesel? If we can send people to the moon, why can't GE build a diesel loco that looks like 4-8-8-2? It would be a diesel but to the casual observer, it would appear to be steam...even put all the exhaust out the stack! Instead of the rods turning the drivers, let the drivers move the rods back and forth.

Not a bad idea. That would be cool to see, but I doubt the railroads would want to go through that much trouble for a simple unit coal train. Maybe for specials i guess.

[gbmott]

They didn't really need more power right away and I don't think would have bit on the SD50 or more GP50's. Might have opted for SD60's, but more likely the SD45's would have hung around until eventually replaced by SD70MAC's (yes, AC's - the SLSF wasn't afraid of technology and they would have afforded the unit reductions that the SLSF understood very well). GP15's, GP38's and GP35's (derated, possibly even with the turbos removed) would have held down the local and branchline assignments. By now they would be running GEVOs and SD70Ace's like everyone else.

Gordon

[Iantha_Branch]

GP15's, GP38's and GP35's (derated, possibly even with the turbos removed)



The GP35's and GP50's would make since. The GP38's didn't have turbos, they had Roots Blowers and were very reliable. The GP15-1 had a turbo, and was reliable. The EMD 35, 45, and 50 series diesels all had one thing in common, they went to far with the motor.

[Karl]

The GP-15-1's were normally aspirated. The C&O and Apalachicola Northern had GP15TAC's, which were turbo-charged

[gbmott]

What I was trying to say was that the GP15's and GP38's would have been used as built plus the GP35's would have also worked in local service but most likely would have been derated and/or had their turbos removed. This could have eventually happened to the GP50's as well, but I think they would have continued to run as-built for a while.

Gordon

[FriscoGeorge]

In my opinion, and in Answer to the question "What should the FRISCO have purchased Next?" THE BURLINGTON NORTHERN RAILROAD!
No, they should have purchased South African gold bars! :D

[friscobob]

I remember that Katy started getting former Conrail GP38-2s and GP40s, as well as former ICG GP38s. Granted, they were picking up this power for increased traffic as well as running the OKT, but what's to say Frisco may not have gone that route as well? Even KCS picked up ex-ICG GP40s for local and dodger service.

The U25Bs and GP35s would be ready to retire, so this scenario could have resulted in this move.

As for six-axle power, I saw a lot of Santa Fe six-motors racing thru Afton on runthru freights. Even given the limited trackage for six-motors, perhaps more SD40s would be purchased for pool power., especially with Santa Fe and SCL/CSX. With certain unit coal trains running even then (the WFEC coalies come to mind), the SD40-2s could even see service there. Also, with UP connections in Kansas City, one could also see them there.

I don't know what the mechanical and operating departments felt about the GE diesels, so I have no idea what they would have done outside of retiring the older GEs.

With the large number of GP38AC/GP38-2s on the roster by November 1980, I would not be surprised to see more of the same, either new or secondhand (again, ex-Conrail, but also ex-Rock Island as well).

More GP50s? Well, the Bad News bought a bunch of then as well, so I could see Frisco using them at first on fast freights, should they consider getting 'em.

[friscoWyatt]

In my opinion, and in Answer to the question "What should the FRISCO have purchased Next?" THE BURLINGTON NORTHERN RAILROAD!



oh how I miss the frisco . I dont understand all the indepth stuff.

to be honest I wished the Frisco could have bought out the kcs and then buy some sd 50's and some sd70's I love the frisco disels but my favorite locomotives were the HIGHNOSE U25B'S .

[Iantha_Branch]

to be honest I wished the Frisco could have bought out the kcs .

Why? The Frisco had tracks that were very close to the KCS tracks, well in the northern part of the KCS line, I don't know farther south than Joplin.

[TAG1014]

The "what if's" (Various diesels etc.) don't particluarly interest me, but KCS has the Port Of New Orleans access. That would be the main selling point for any such transaction.

Tom

[meteor910]

The KCS was/is one of the few true north/south railroads in the USA. The IC was another - that's why the CN gobbled them up.

Ken

PS: Plus, KCS now has the Panama Railroad, which is a gold mine if run properly.

[Brad Slone]

The thoughts of the Frisco reaching the western gulf ports is interesting. I have always wondered about the what if the Frisco had been able to aquire some of the non redundant portions of the Rock Island. Particularly the Chicago to New Mexico route getting it closer to the Pacific (San Fransico) or the north western lines getting it closer to Powder River coal. Just some thoughts I had when I've been setting at a grade crossing waiting for the green machines to pass!

Brad

[trainchaser007]

Back in June I made the following statement:
"Well if steam polution is out of the question...how about a diesel that looks like a steam loco but is actually a diesel?..."
In July I actually saw this done on a narrow guage passenger train...well, sort of.
I went to Six Flags over Georgia...again:rolleyes:. They have a narrow guage passenger train that shuttles people around the theme park (or you can just ride it 4 or 5 times around the park without getting off like my girls wanted to do:D). It looks like a 4-4-0 but actually, the tender is a diesel engine :eek:(the first time, my girls and I made the mistake of sitting in the first seat behind the tender...talk about diesel exhaust...yuck!:mad:) It was then that I realized that my comment from June about a steam-looking diesel wasn't so far fetched. In fact, it had already been done...only on a narrow guage theme park train. Here's a video someone made and posted on youtube from the first seat on the first coach directly behind the tender: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Scs0a-b6x-E
Wouldn't it be cool to see some BNSF "Mallet-looking" units with a load of Powder River Basin coal? Six flags has proven it can be done!

[JohnFoster]

SD 40-2 or gp 50s would be great .Use the 38s for locals . Get ride os the worn out 35s, ub 23 .

[renapper]

John, sorry to say Frisco did not have any u23's they were U25B's.
Richard

[Iantha_Branch]

John, sorry to say Frisco did not have any u23's they were U25B's.
Richard

Actually, the U25 doesn't look much like the U23, John was probably thinking of the U30 and the B30-7 (There is any easy to spot difference between the two)

[wpmoreland719]

None of the above. Soldier on with the GP40's and wait until the GP60's come out in '88.

[frisco1522]

2-10-4s

[meteor910]

Would th eFrisco have bee able to benefit from the advantages of a 2-8-4 for heavy, fast freight?

Ken

[Iantha_Branch]

2-10-4s

Where is the like button on this site? ;)

[B.A.]

Tough call ... my vote is swayed by how a locomotive looks. So, I went for the SD40-2 because of those great front and back porches!

[myopiceagle]

What SHOULD Frisco have purchased? That's a matter of opinion, the best answer is of course, the whole BN system. Keep the coonskin emblem alive.

But I think the better question is, had the Frisco remained in operation, what WOULD they have purchased next? I think it would have been the SD50's. EMD marketed them well in the early 1980's to counter the sluggish economy and competition from GE. The Frisco, without a doubt, would have bought a few of them at least. After the problems with the SD50's began to surface, they would have gone back to GE. Then when the micro-processor locomotives (SD60 and SD70) came out, they would have switched to EMD again.

There have been other thread's that have discussed this next point, but I feel like I should throw it out there for discussion again. What would those 1980's locomotives looked like when delivered? Red and White? I think they would have been. The time for image refinement and improvement didn't really take place on modern RR's until the mid-90's or so.

[meteor910]

I dunno. How long did it take for the ten Frisco-ordered GP50's (SLSF 790-799, i.e., 3100-3109) to start showing their GP35-like troubles? The Frisco ordered these units early in the EMD 50-series life. If they had recognized the troubles early on in the GP50's service life, they may not have gone for the SD50 and gone to GE sooner.

The GP35 showed the EMD 567 was stressed to its limits - just as the GP50 showed the EMD 645 was approaching its limits. All this time, the GE FDL kept getting better and better.

Ken