Frisco Historical Society?

[friscomike]

Howdy folks,

On my drive up to Denver, I had a lot of time to think about Frisco.org, its past, present, and future. It occurred to me that Frisco.org is just one part, a library of sorts, that compliments a network of fine museums and websites dedicated to the Frisco.

I wonder if starting a historical society, with the Meteor as the newsletter, and Frisco.org as the reference library, blog, and discussion forum, might be a good idea. Very simple with no big boards, hierarchies, or monies involved.

What are your opinions about a historical society; specifically, what would the objective of the historical society be? What goals would we strive for in the short and long terms, e.g., serve as THE reference point for manufactures to get detailed information for models.

I don't really have any personal objectives in mind, but I am not going to live forever, and I want Frisco.org to survive, evolve, and nurture the memory of the Saint Louis and San Francisco Railroad.

Please vote and share your thoughts.

Best regards,
Mike

[TAG1014]

Nope--We don't need it! This chat board serves the purpose sufficiently.

Tom

[Iantha_Branch]

I'm with Tom, I thought this is what part of this site was. Maybe you could make a web site for it, with the forums on Frisco.org. :confused:

[TAG1014]

We already HAVE a "Frisco Historical (and Technical) Society." On this forum there are a couple of dozen (Likely even more) modelers, historians and trivia buffs forming an incredible bank of knowledge of the Frisco from every era and aspect of the railroad. And here, everyone is is virtualy equal, no one person with a greater voice than another. A natural checkmate on any overbearing or overreaching individual--A very democratic arrangement indeed.
If there were a "society" formed with officers, minutes, committees, by-laws and all the associated trappings, the "power," like it or not, would go from distributed among many to being centralized among just a few.
Let's keep it "This Way!" It's just fine as is--when someone has a question about steam, diesels, passenger trains, the latest Atlas or Athearn model, freight car brake rigging, scenery modeling, DCC etc. etc. etc., there's someone at the ready with the answer--And we don't have to elect officers, form committees or be governed by "Roberts' Rules Of Order!"

Tom

[Brian waller]

Hello,

I have voted "Yes" on this poll for The Frisco Historical Society. I think this will be a good idea to keep the History of The Frisco alive.

If you don't mind, I am the President/Member of a Railroad Historical Society call "The Eureka Springs & North Arkansas Railroad Historical & Restoration Society". This Society is almost 2 years old and was designed for two reasons and two reasons only, to protect the History of The ES&NA RR from being lost and to protect The ES&NA RR from being lost and forgotten. For more information on "The ES&NA RR Historical & Restoration Society", you can visit this website at http://www.savingesnarailroad.com, link under The ES&NA RR Historical & Restoration Society.

Now you don't have to listen to me about this but I will say "Yes" on The Frisco Historical Society. This is just my opition.

Thanks,
Brian Waller

[Jim James]

I thought we already are a Frisco Historical Society. Let's keep it like it is and not go the way of the Eureka Springs. This is way more comfortable and relaxed in my opinion.

[Sirfoldalot]

Before I vote on this, I want to see more discussion. What, if any, would be the benefits of such over what we currently have? This website has "tons" more information than most all of the other "historical societies" that I have visited. To me it seems hard to improve on "perfect".

OK, I will vote "More Discussion".

[Friscotony]

Gentlemen, at age 69, I know that at some point in time, my exit to the freeway of live will come up. My concern is what will become of the many slides, photos, maps and so on that are of no interest to the average person, but could be of great value to other Frisco types. Whom do I give these to????????? A central repository would be great so that others may continue to use them.

[meteor910]

A few thoughts from one who has been there .....

I voted "yes" for a SLSF Historical Society. The Frisco is one of the few major rr's in the US that does not have a historical society. I can't think of another road the size of the SLSF that does not have one. Too bad. Makes the SLSF, and we who are fans of it, look bad as well.

It is not without risks - I was active (in fact I wound up heading it) in a group in the early 1980's that attempted to form a historical society for the SLSF - and it was a disaster. It cost me about 90% of a valued friendship that has yet to recover - still limping along.

Our 1980's society is still incorporated in Missouri to my knowledge.

Advantages of a historical society are:
o Broader reach - will bring in more members, and have a higher profile for the SLSF
o Cooperative efforts with other "boardering" societies - MKT, MP, TRRA, SSW, PRR, ATSF, etc etc
o A chance for a first class, professional "The Meteor". I'm certainly not knocking what we have, as I'm one who pushed for it. But, most of the publications I get (I'm a member of twenty rr historical societies at last count) are simply TERRIFIC magazines. Not all of them are good, however.
o A place to archive, and pass on to, precious Frisco historical documents. Most of the societies maintain an archive. (I have no idea what will be done with all my stuff after I'm gone. It would be a shame to lose it)
o You can attract nationally known members, authors, presenters
o Have a formal annual convention - speakers, swap meet, presentations, clinics, etc. Fun - I've given clinics at a few (on the Frisco!)
o frisco.org would be (should be, must be) a key part of it

Disadvantages are:
o It's a lot of work, and a dozen or so people - minimum - need to do it - not just one or two.
o It is a formal organization with the usual bureaucratic stuff
o It costs some money - annual dues, a budget, etc. How many of you contribute to frisco.org to help out Mike? You all will pay dues to a historical society to be a member
o There are arguments and rivalries - I know that for a fact!
o Many of them fail, or are at best so-so. Others, however, are terrific! Examples of the winners in my opinion (in no particular order): PRR, TRRA, NYC, N&W, ATSF, SP, UP, MP, GM&O, IT, Milw, RI, ACL/SAL, L&N, etc.

I'm perfectly happy with frisco.org - it meets my needs and Mike (and others) do a great job with it. But, we are not giving the Frisco the exposure I feel it well deserves because we are not a well known group. The benefit of the exposure is that more stuff (information) and members will come in, and we all would gain.

Just my thoughts. I know one thing - I'm not going to head up an effort to do it. Did that once, was pretty much alone, failed, still nursing scars.

Ken

[frisco1522]

Perhaps Louis Griesemer in Springfield would be a good person to ask about a central repository.
I keep meaning to talk to him about my stuff some day, but I plan to live a lot longer you know.

[w3hodoug]

Let's keep it "This Way!" It's just fine as is--when someone has a question about steam, diesels, passenger trains, the latest Atlas or Athearn model, freight car brake rigging, scenery modeling, DCC etc. etc. etc., there's someone at the ready with the answer--And we don't have to elect officers, form committees or be governed by "Roberts' Rules Of Order!"

Tom

We are what we are. It has taken a lot of time and effort since the summer of 1976 to arrive here. We have almost 1,800 people in this board community with about 10% active.

Doug, around since the start

[klrwhizkid]

The most important thing is that all the information that is "out there" in the form of plans, documents, images, etc gets preserved and not destroyed by unknowing relatives, friends, or worse; flood or fire. The best way that I can think of is to ensure that what you have gets scanned and posted here, in digital form for everyone to share. The more digital copies of everything that get produced, the less likelihood that something will get lost to everyone.

Does that mean we need a formal group? I just don't have a definitive answer.

[Joe Lovett]

My layout plans have an interchange with ATSF, MoPac and KSC. What are the links for the above lines?

Joe

[Sirfoldalot]

I have this link to many historical societies. I have looked at several of them, but have found nothing that equals what we have here? Am I missing something?

http://ribbonrail.com/rrpro/database.html

[SteveM]

I voted "more discussion."
Mike is providing a great service and several members are doing a fine job of contributing material. There does need to be something set up so this resource doesn't disappear if something happens to Mike or his server.
Printing a magazine is a big effort; how many more people would be reached by that expenditure? Would an equal result come from more folks helping Richard with his electronic version?
I would think the MOP is the closest comparison. They put out a nice publication that has been fairly regular (important to keep a certain part of membership happy) and they have an annual convention. They have a depository that seems to depend mostly on one or two folks for upkeep and access and right now I don't think there's anybody with the energy to get their stuff on-line in a big way. Maybe some discussions with them about the manpower and determination involved?
My layout is half MOP, so I would be very happy to see a joint convention when the location is appropriate. Mutual links on websites for pertinent information, etc.

[Charlie Dix]

More discussion... we need the strongest organization possible.

Charlie

[meteor910]

My layout plans have an interchange with ATSF, MoPac and KSC. What are the links for the above lines?
Joe

ATSF: www.atsfrr.net Excellent publication - The Warbonnet

MoPac: www.mopac.org Good publication - The Eagle

Don't know about the KCS society - I'm not a member.

Ken

[rlckansas]

I think there will need to be something more formal at some point. I just don't know how formal it ought to be. Perhaps the way to start is for a small group to get an annual Frisco train show/convention established. Having an FHS would be a place for photos and slides to be donated to. It might also be nice to have a "Frisco.org" flyer that would be in hobby shops & museums to reach out to "civilians" (as opposed to railfans).

Lots to think about on this topic. I hope these posts will get us going in some direction...

[mvtelegrapher]

As a board member and current President of a very active railroad Historical Society and someone who has been in several organizations and put on the first Frisco Festival, I voted yes for a formal society. The majority of former Frisco employees and their families plus the general public simply do not know about this sort of website and are not personally interested in using it, but they would be more inclined to give items or ask questions to a historical society that has a permanent address and people that can be talked too one on one. We must remember that to keep the memory of the Frisco alive and to educate the masses about it will take more than just a website. Eventually the number on this site will decline simply due to fewer people alive who personally remember the Frisco before it was merged. Like Mike says, who will take on this site if something would happen to him? With a formal organization that is run well this site can go on indefinitly and a permanent depository of Frisco items can be created. This depository could be in conjunction with some government or school library or museum. I'm willing to host here in Pittsburg or at our museum in Carona a group of people who would be willing to discuss this issue and possibly put together a plan of action. If anyone is interested in this please let me know and we can set up a date and time.

John Chambers
President, Heart of the Heartlands
Carona, Kansas
www.heartlandstrainclub.org (http://www.heartlandstrainclub.org)

[Sirfoldalot]

I'm willing to host here in Pittsburg or at our museum in Carona a group of people who would be willing to discuss this issue and possibly put together a plan of action.

John Chambers
President, Heart of the Heartlands
Carona, Kansas
www.heartlandstrainclub.org (http://www.heartlandstrainclub.org)

Keep it up - John. I may yet have an opportunity for some of that local fried chicken! :)

[FRISCO4503]

John, That was very well said, and I agree, a society well educated and with a permanent address is definitely needed to Keep FRISCO Alive and Well. I would be honored if you could start this, you have to be the most educated man I know on the FRISCO and its operations, equipment, and knowledge in General, and I mean this sincerely. I think it would be fitting to have the location in Springfield, as that was the hub of all the FRISCO Operations, but, Pittsburg or even cherryvale would be just as good. Didnt you say at one time the old FRISCO Depot in Cherryvale was dismantled and was sitting in a warehouse somewhere? If I am right, maybe that would be a great place to start would be to see if Mr. Webb and the City of Cherryvale would allow the old depot to be rebuilt, and could house some of the equipment and artifacts in there. Sorta the way the old Cherryvale Depot used to be, with the lay out and the way they had it set up as a museum. Maybe change the location of the depot to somewhere away from the tracks so not to take on the possibility of a derailment crashing into the depot and losing artifacts. But this is just my 2 cents worth. I hope this comes to reality. I never knew much about the FRISCO until I met you guys, and the education I got is something I will always remember, and for that, I have the utmost respect and appreciation. I say go for it!

[Iantha_Branch]

Maybe change the location of the depot to somewhere away from the tracks so not to take on the possibility of a derailment crashing into the depot and losing artifacts.

I don't think a train going at the MAX 10 MPH will go that far off the tracks.

[bob_wintle]

The Cherryvale Frisco Depot that was taken down piece by piece and moved to the Kansas City area was not stored in a Warehouse. The story I have been told is that it was stored in a field. The wood all rotted away and the used brick has supposedly been sold off.
Bob Wintle
Parsons, Ks.

[FriscoFriend]

I don't think a train going at the MAX 10 MPH will go that far off the tracks.

Totally awesome assessment! Ethan must be getting a A in physics class! I mean that sincerely.

[w3hodoug]

Either way, we need a long-range plan for frisco.org. Doug

[FriscoFriend]

Either way, we need a long-range plan for frisco.org. Doug

I have been quite reluctant to jump in here, but after seeing Doug's post which I believe to be spot on, here I am.

Some of you remember that there was a Historical Society that went defunct and left a bad taste in many peoples mouths. Any attempt to form a new one will in my opinion first take getting past that hurdle.

I for one am happy with the forum we have and wish that somehow a Historical Society could be wrapped into this without damaging its structure. I also feel that in some regards we are way ahead of the curve with this organization and the ability to share information.

Mike calls it the "Frisco Railroad Library" so in a sense isn't it already the "Library" part of a bigger entity like a Historical Society"?

Food for Thought?

[tomd6]

A few thoughts from one who has been there .....

I voted "yes" for a SLSF Historical Society. The Frisco is one of the few major rr's in the US that does not have a historical society. I can't think of another road the size of the SLSF that does not have one. Too bad. Makes the SLSF, and we who are fans of it, look bad as well.

It is not without risks - I was active (in fact I wound up heading it) in a group in the early 1980's that attempted to form a historical society for the SLSF - and it was a disaster. It cost me about 90% of a valued friendship that has yet to recover - still limping along.

Our 1980's society is still incorporated in Missouri to my knowledge.

Advantages of a historical society are:
o Broader reach - will bring in more members, and have a higher profile for the SLSF
o Cooperative efforts with other "boardering" societies - MKT, MP, TRRA, SSW, PRR, ATSF, etc etc
o A chance for a first class, professional "The Meteor". I'm certainly not knocking what we have, as I'm one who pushed for it. But, most of the publications I get (I'm a member of twenty rr historical societies at last count) are simply TERRIFIC magazines. Not all of them are good, however.
o A place to archive, and pass on to, precious Frisco historical documents. Most of the societies maintain an archive. (I have no idea what will be done with all my stuff after I'm gone. It would be a shame to lose it)
o You can attract nationally known members, authors, presenters
o Have a formal annual convention - speakers, swap meet, presentations, clinics, etc. Fun - I've given clinics at a few (on the Frisco!)
o frisco.org would be (should be, must be) a key part of it

Disadvantages are:
o It's a lot of work, and a dozen or so people - minimum - need to do it - not just one or two.
o It is a formal organization with the usual bureaucratic stuff
o It costs some money - annual dues, a budget, etc. How many of you contribute to frisco.org to help out Mike? You all will pay dues to a historical society to be a member
o There are arguments and rivalries - I know that for a fact!
o Many of them fail, or are at best so-so. Others, however, are terrific! Examples of the winners in my opinion (in no particular order): PRR, TRRA, NYC, N&W, ATSF, SP, UP, MP, GM&O, IT, Milw, RI, ACL/SAL, L&N, etc.

I'm perfectly happy with frisco.org - it meets my needs and Mike (and others) do a great job with it. But, we are not giving the Frisco the exposure I feel it well deserves because we are not a well known group. The benefit of the exposure is that more stuff (information) and members will come in, and we all would gain.

Just my thoughts. I know one thing - I'm not going to head up an effort to do it. Did that once, was pretty much alone, failed, still nursing scars.

Ken

Another advantage to using a non-profit corporation would be IRS 501(c)(3) status. It would allow donors to deduct the fair market value of contributions (cash or items) on their Federal income tax forms. The IRS has been requesting more information from non-profits, even those with gross revenues under $25,000 per year, but the work should not be substantial in my experience

[Iantha_Branch]

Totally awesome assessment! Ethan must be getting a A in physics class! I mean that sincerely.

We havn't really had pyshics yet, It's not availble till I think Junior year. But one who gets bord with MSTS can figure it out easly, a small train going 10 mph wont go far off the tracks, on the other hand an Amtrak HHP-8 doing 180 by its self will go half way across the Potomic:D:D:D:D

[Sirfoldalot]

Bet George Washington wishes he had had one back then! :D:D:D:D

[FRISCO4503]

I don't think a train going at the MAX 10 MPH will go that far off the tracks.

But a train, none the less can do alot of Damage even at 5 miles an hour or less, just a derailment in general can tear up alot of real estate. I have seen it done many times.

[FRISCO4503]

The Cherryvale Frisco Depot that was taken down piece by piece and moved to the Kansas City area was not stored in a Warehouse. The story I have been told is that it was stored in a field. The wood all rotted away and the used brick has supposedly been sold off.
Bob Wintle
Parsons, Ks.


Too bad the plans er...Blue Prints rather, can't be found and the depot still be rebuilt!

[friscomike]

Howdy folks,

I'm back in town, so will devote some time to all your comments and post a few thoughts in summation.

I successfully wrote a 501(c)(3) last year for the Texas Western, and think I could write another for the Frisco without any difficulty. That is the easy part. The hard part has been discussed in this thread.

More later. I just got in and I am bushed from the 14 hour drive.

Best,
mike

[w3hodoug]

We havn't really had pyshics yet, It's not availble till I think Junior year. But one who gets bord with MSTS can figure it out easly, a small train going 10 mph wont go far off the tracks, on the other hand an Amtrak HHP-8 doing 180 by its self will go half way across the Potomic:D:D:D:D

One half the product of mass times velocity squared - it's the speed that defines how big the brake pads/shoes have to be. But for a train, mass is also pretty darned big.

Ethan, it's called kinetic energy. There is also potential energy of a mass at rest.

You'll enjoy your physics class.

[bob_wintle]

I feel that as a group we should take steps to insure that Frisco.org will carry on in the case something should happen to "Friscomike". I am opposed to the idea of a "Society" just for the sake of having one or a newsletter. I believe that Frisco.org more than adequately takes care of our needs. I have not voted in the poll as of yet and may not. I just haven't heard any ideas one way or the other that appeal to me as of yet. I would really like to hear ideas on how to make sure Mike has a backup that can and will take over in his abscence. I have had my fill with "Societies" their rules and the politics that go with them. These are my thoughts and I do not mean to demeaner anyone elses.
Bob Wintle
Parsons, Ks.

[FriscoFriend]

I feel that as a group we should take steps to insure that Frisco.org will carry on in the case something should happen to "Friscomike". I am opposed to the idea of a "Society" just for the sake of having one or a newsletter. I believe that Frisco.org more than adequately takes care of our needs. I have not voted in the poll as of yet and may not. I just haven't heard any ideas one way or the other that appeal to me as of yet. I would really like to hear ideas on how to make sure Mike has a backup that can and will take over in his abscence. I have had my fill with "Societies" their rules and the politics that go with them. These are my thoughts and I do not mean to demeaner anyone elses.
Bob Wintle
Parsons, Ks.

Bob makes some very interesting points here and maybe we should explore with Mike a way to assure that this keeps going. Maybe he would be willing to share with some or all of us what exactly it takes financially to sustain it and what is actually involved besides maintaining a web site.
Mike can correct me if I'm wrong here, but since he owns the site he can monitor content and delete threads if he so chooses. I know for a fact that he is a firm believer in the principle of free speech and to my knowledge has only deleted one thread that got out of hand.
Bob's comment about "Societies" in the world of railroading has some merit worth considering. By the time an issue gets through the layers of politics it becomes so watered down that it becomes redundant.
To me the real beauty of this group or forum, vs. something like a Yahoo Group is the principle of threads where someoe posts a question and those knowledgeable on the subject can jump in and post ideas and/or photos and maps. I would be hard pressed to find another railroad related forum with as much information as this one has.

At this point in the discussion, the real issue to me is on a going forward basis how can we find that one person or persons to oversee the forum as objectively and diplomatically as Mike has without it becoming another "Society"?

We are all quite fortunate we have Mike!

[bob_wintle]

Very well said Bob!

[meteor910]

You'll enjoy your physics class.

There is also the law of conservation of momentum. Momentum = mass times velocity.

A big heavy train moving only at 5 MPH will knock a relatively light track-side structure moving at zero speed into a zillion pieces if it hits it. It will roll right through the building.

Ethan - Physics is great. Same comment Doug had - I loved it. Between Physics, Chemistry and Math, you can explain almost anything. I took lots of math, plus chemistry and physics in high school, and that set me up well for chemical engineering degrees at both MSM (now Mo S&T) and Purdue.

Physics 21 & 22, Norwood Hall, MSM, early 1960's - eh Doug?

Ken

[Friscotony]

Would someone please apply that momentum theory to this Brian person who keeps bugging us with this Arkansas railroad in the middle of other threads.

Thanks, Tony

[Coonskin]

I agree that it would be nice to ensure the resources now available, and those future, could be secured, but I will need to defer to those with much more first-hand experience as to "how".

Quick reply to an observation in this thread:


I don't think a train going at the MAX 10 MPH will go that far off the tracks.

The worst derail I have experienced to date as an engineer was at 10 MPH. I was handling a loaded grain train about 1/2 mile long. Leaving a sag, I felt a very slight tug, almost as if a bit of slack had stretched. Upbraiding myself for not handling the air better, all was well as I pulled along in using throttle 3 and 4, which was typical for that section.

Next thing I knew a terrific "crack the whip" effect and "BAM!!!": Into emergency the train went. There was a green Conductor aboard and first thing out of his mouth was "What was THAT???"

I replied "We're on the ground, and it's bad." Though I couldn't see the end of the train, I didn't have to see it. Knew from the feel of it that this one was not going to be pretty.

Walking back to the scene, I was appalled to find three loads on their side, slightly piled up, at least 10' or more from the tracks, grain spilled out... and another car half off still coupled to the remaining train.

Hard part was calling the Trainmaster to tell him what had just happened.

The investigation revealed:

*According to the downloaded data from my engines, my the train handling was, according to the General Manager, "Excellent". (Whew. Still had a job.)

* One side of the last truck of the last car had a sun kink (welded rail) shoot out from under it. The rail shot off to the side about 6'-8'.

* The derailed side of the truck then overturned the rail, hopped it, and rode inside the web. (This was the slight tug I felt.)

* Once riding the web on one side and still on the rail on the other, the car rolled meerily along, peeling the north rail like a can-opener.

* Half mile later the derailed wheels trailed through a switch, snagged on the frog... and cracked the train like a whip and did a tremendous amount of damage.

All that said: HAD there been a depot at the typical distance beside the track, the cars would have gotten into it easily.

Odd business, this railroading.

Andre Ming

[WindsorSpring]

Historical societies frequently maintain assets (rolling stock, buildings, land, documents). Their incorporation and tax-exempt status allows them to accumulate funds for asset acquisition and maintenance "in perpetuity." This would be an advantage of historical society incorporation over the present format.

Documents (locomotive diagrams, logs, waybills, invoices, etc.) are primary sources for research that can lead to publications. There has been a wealth of these posted in the Frisco.org Library as scans at multiple degrees of resolution. However, I am concerned about the role these play.

Obviously, someone can conduct extensive research within Frisco.org to find material to write something about the railroad. It raises two procedural questions:

1. Would citation of the name of the document as located on Frisco.org be acceptable to a committee reviewing the manuscript?

2. Must the would-be author instead see the actual hard copy before citation?

I believe the current trend ("scholarship lite") accepts the first option. A serious scholar should prefer to do research from hard copies.

At best, then, Frisco.org is a clearinghouse that gives the last-known location and custodian of the document. Are members willing to be contacted and allow in-person examination of their Frisco items by an author for research purposes?

Posts in the thread bemoan the politics of organizations, but an advantage of going through the exercise of politics is the creation of a Board of Directors, By-laws and Policies that address questions like these. This can give the Frisco better exposure.

[w3hodoug]

Posts in the thread bemoan the politics of organizations, but an advantage of going through the exercise of politics is the creation of a Board of Directors, By-laws and Policies that address questions like these. This can give the Frisco better exposure.

Haven't we already been there, done that?

Doug

[Frisco2008]

Here are some random thoughts about an Histiorical Society:

Isn't the Springfield Library a possibility for archiving papers, photos, etc? Plus, we can offer many of these in a digitized format. Collections, as in "From the Phillin D Blank collection" are common place holdings in Libraries. If not the Springfield library, how about the "MSM" engineering library?

Don't we have a Frisco Spring Fling coming up? If so, those interested could meet before, during or after to develop the structure. (The KRHS was "wrapped-up" in a day at Parsons. I have no idea how much pre-work was done before hand.

This wheel has been built many times, by many groups...all that needs to be done is to put Frisco treads on the wheel.

[meteor910]

My "disposition thoughts" as they now stand -

My current plan is to leave my models, unbuilt kits, etc to son Kurt. Don't know if he will ever become interested in model railroading again or not. After all, he has two daughters, no sons. Addison does play with her Thomas Tank Engine set often, but mainly with the "Frisco" caboose I gave her last Christmas ..... because it plays music! :) She dances to it. :) He could always sell the stuff.

More importantly - my Frisco non-model collection (books, TT, paper, track diagrams, car & loco diagrams, records, forms, pictures, slides, wall hangings, letters, notes, etc, etc, etc), I had planned to leave to the St Louis Mercantile Library at UMSL - except for whatever Kurt wants to keep. Along with their famous Barriger collection, the Mercantile library has quite a railroad library collection there. But, of course, it is not Frisco specific. I am a Merc library member & supporter.

I have a similar dilemma with my naval history library, which almost equals the railroad library in numbers of books, in particular on the German navies of WW1 & WW2. Wonder if the Merc library also wants to become known for a German High Seas Fleet & Kriegsmarine naval library collection! - mine is pretty extensive. I've been collecting it since high school.

Hopefully, I have many, many more years yet to figure out what to do with it all.

Ken

[Charlie Dix]

Mike can correct me if I'm wrong here, but since he owns the site he can monitor content and delete threads if he so chooses. I know for a fact that he is a firm believer in the principle of free speech and to my knowledge has only deleted one thread that got out of hand.

Although Mike has put endless work into this site, and indeed the account on the server that hosts this forum (and related content) is in his name, this site is a group effort.

We initially registered the domain name frisco.org in the 1990s and it is in my name.

Many other people are also responsible for the presence of Frisco content on the Internet. Doug Hughes was someone that I remember as being a first contact on the Internet in the 1990s in relation to the railroad we love.

Some sort of organization will be needed in the future if Mike, myself, or others are not here to manage this.

Without Mike this forum/social network would not exist and for that we owe him a debt of gratitude. I am sure that his intention is to make sure it is built for the future.

Charlie

[FriscoFriend]

Without Mike this forum/social network would not exist and for that we owe him a debt of gratitude. I am sure that his intention is to make sure it is built for the future.

Charlie

Charlie:

This was very well put and I for one agree 100%!

[Rick McClellan]

Without Mike this forum/social network would not exist and for that we owe him a debt of gratitude. I am sure that his intention is to make sure it is built for the future.

Charlie

Right on. I am a Friscomike fan.

[klrwhizkid]

So far, we've had some good discussion but maybe it needs to be put into perspective.

Mike (Corley), what is the cost of maintaining this site on an annual basis? The figure must include all fees including at least one person's internet access to maintain the site, backup costs (assuming backup is being done so all that has been collected is not lost) and any other costs that I haven't mentioned.

Additionally how much of your time is expended on a monthly or annual basis maintaining the site?

Finally, with the existing levels of contributions, how much of the costs are actually covered?

With this base information, we may be able to begin to ascertain the financial feasability of developing and maintaining a true historical society and document repository.

[friscomike]

Howdy,

In answer to the questions about operating Frisco.org, the donations we receive covers our costs and keeps a little in the bank for upgrades and new software add-ons. We use expensive software for our forum, compared with others, but it is the easiest to maintain, the most hacker proof, the most reliable, and IMHO, the best for FRISCO.org.

As for time, that is a hard one to answer. I am on FRISCO.org every day when I am near a computer, but not always investing huge amounts of time "working" on the website. It is more of a check out what is going on, moving posts that are categorized incorrectly, answering emails about registration, and doing periodic backups, in addition to those done by our host, Hostgator. We use vBulletin forum software and have used other portal software with it. Those costs are documented on the vBulletin sites. I'd have to look to see the exact amount.

From a personal and maintenance standpoint, I'd have Internet access, no matter what, so I look at the cost for maintaining the site as a sunk cost, paid for by me. Bottom line is we pay for hosting a large amount of data and for forum software, that's it. Donations support it most of the time. Ii' ve paid for it so long, I dont really pay attention to short falls, I just pay for them out of my personal modeling budget. Anyone who wants exact costs, I'll work those out on an annual basis and pass those on. I don't have access to all the data tonight, or I'd post it.

There isn't enough to pay for historical society costs, too; we'd probably need to charge a society fee. What you'd get for your society fees would need to be determined. My objective has been to make FRISCO.org free to anyone who wants to participate. Since I retired, that hasn't been as financially easy as when I worked, hence the need for donations. They do the job, our members responded well and continue to respond with enough donations to cover costs.

Since FRISCO.org is almost self maintaining from a content perspective, I don't have to spend a lot of time maintaining posts. We seem to do well at policing ourselves.

What I would like to see from a website help perspective is a technology skilled person to back me up. Currently, Charlie Dix provides that service, but he has a full time job, too, plus he runs Trainboard.com. Having an assistant who could do the same things I do would help ensure we continue operating without a hitch. After working on the FMIG and Frisco sites since the mid 90's, it comes pretty easy for me. Upgrades take the most time and are the highest risk to our users. You never know when something will go wrong, and you'd have to restore the site from backups. I've only had to do that a couple of times in fifteen years, but it does take years off my life when I do. For the most part, we operate without interruption to users most of the time.

Moderators help, but what I'd like to do is train and groom an assistant webmaster whose heart is Frisco red and who our community could count on to become out future webmaster. The reason I proposed the question and poll about a historical society was to formalize the need to keep the Frisco going.

We have done most of the things a historical society does, with the exception of a newsletter, and Richard is taking care of that, now. We could easily rebadge ourselves as the Frisco Historical Society. There is a lot of Frisco material that has not been digitized and shared with the community. I'd love to have diagrams and photos about every single car class, loco class, structure, station, etc., available to the community on FRISCO.org. We are making progress, but we're not there yet. It takes a lot of dedication from Frisco heroes. It would be nice to have a wise moderator/hero for each category listed in The Real Frisco, plus the same for the modeling community.

Oops, I'm rambling, but I have read each post, and am formulating some ideas and recommendations for the group. It is nice to simply do what we want. KISS is good.

Best regards,
Mike

[Charlie Dix]

Mike and I have talked, in the past, about hosting frisco.org on the TrainBoard server, which is RAID (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID) configured. This would make the site more secure and probably faster.

We would just have to figure out how much it would use in resources (probably not a lot) and make sure the donations cover it.

You also might have to have a banner ad at some point to raise a little money.

Charlie

[FriscoFriend]

Howdy,

Bottom line is we pay for hosting a large amount of data and for forum software, that's it. Donations support it most of the time. Ii' ve paid for it so long, I dont really pay attention to short falls, I just pay for them out of my personal modeling budget.


I for one don't know how the rest of you feel about this statement, but I don't think this "paying for shortfalls out of my personal modeling budget" should ever have happened in the first place and hopefully we can all find a way that it NEVER happens again. I think that if each one of us would make a yearly contibution of at the very least the value of one of those beautiful freight car that we all talk about and anticipate receiving, we could assure that it doesn't. For those of you that don't realize it, the people listed in red are contributors and Mike has made it easy to give by just clicking on the Paypal button to become one.

I will be the first to admit that I receive far more from this site than I have given and that is about to change. As soon as I hit the send button on this message I am going to go to the home page and hit the send button on PayPal and urge more of you to do the same. We also need more "Good" red ink as in the form of more contributors.

Sincerely,

[Sirfoldalot]

Ditto from me on your statement, Bob!
I will double my contribs this year.
However... why is mine not shown "Red"???

I have wondered why some are blue and some were red.

[MFreix]

How or where do I donate?

[FriscoFriend]

Ditto from me on your statement, Bob!
I will double my contribs this year.
However... why is mine not shown "Red"???

I have wondered why some are blue and some were red.

I may have been mistaken in my post. I will get clarification fom Mike. Stay tuned!

[FriscoFriend]

How or where do I donate?

Matt and All:

When you first log into the site there is a box on the left hand side that has a place to enter an amount and select PayPal. There are also instructions on how to send money to Mike in other ways. I never have figured out how to get back to that page once I'm in and have done some searching. Maybe someone else can chime in here.

[tmfrisco]

I have made three contributions in the last 18 months or so, and only one of them showed on my name automatically. I mentioned it to Mike after the second donation, and he corrected the screen. The last time I just let it go. I am not looking for recognition, but if acknowledgement is going to be given, then I don't understand why my donations are not showing up. Just curious:confused:. I will continue to give because I agree that the cost should be carried by everyone who benefits from the organization. I appreciate that Mike has carried the extra financial load, but also agree it should stop because of sufficient donations. By the way, I believe it is tax deductible also:confused:. Correct me if that is incorrect. Thanks, Terry

[Sirfoldalot]

Well Doggies! Don't know who is the responsible party, but see that my color is now "Frisco Red" :) (not that It really makes any difference to me).

Check's in the mail, Mike. Been a little tardy this year. Tax time and all.
My apologies.

[Charlie Dix]

Another idea would be to offer monthly subscriptions. On TrainBoard we have offered a $2 monthly subscription which (I believe) nets us $1.88 per donation. At the request of several members we also offered a $5 monthly subscription.

The $2 option will deduct that amount from a PayPal account each month and nets the site approximately $22.56 yearly from each member. 25 people subscribing at that rate = $564.

That, coupled with individual donations (and possible advertising revenue) should help the site greatly.

The $2 subscription is also non-painful for people who keep a balance in PayPal as it is no more than the cost of a cup of coffee, once per month.

Just ideas...

Charlie

[FriscoFriend]

Another idea would be to offer monthly subscriptions. On TrainBoard we have offered a $2 monthly subscription which (I believe) nets us $1.88 per donation. At the request of several members we also offered a $5 monthly subscription.


Charlie

I for one think this is a great idea. Also maybe check boxes like $10.00 a year, $25.00 a year, $50.00 a year and the you fill in the amount option like Mike currently has.

[w3hodoug]

I for one don't know how the rest of you feel about this statement, but I don't think this "paying for shortfalls out of my personal modeling budget" should ever have happened in the first place

All the initial FMIG Newsletters were produced and mailed "gratus", meaning out of my pocket.

I felt that asking each to subscribe placed me in a Must-Produce mode, which I didn't want.

We've been through all these issues since 1976.

IMHO, keeping the frisco.org web site going long-term is the primary issue for resolution.

Doug, founder

[FriscoFriend]

To All:

Two points of clarification on my previous posts.

(1) I have verified with Mike that if your name is in red that signifies that you are indeed a financial contributor or supporter. The + sign behind names at the bottom means that the person is a "friend" of yours. The * sign behind a name means that the person is a past recipient of "Engineer of the Year".

(2) In regards to Doug's post, I think we all could agree as to why he did the FMIG Newsletters at his expense is well taken and very valid. We all owe him a debt of gratitude for what he did. Having said that I see somewhat of a difference here as what we are paying for as far as supporters is basically bandwidth and web hosting fees. I might be wrong about this but the more bandwidth we use the more it costs.
Maybe putting it a different way may help to clarify what I mean. In the case of the newsletters there were contributors and an editor (Doug in that case). With this forum we are contributors, but it is mostly self editing.

Just my thoughts.

[mvtelegrapher]

Mike can answer this question, if you donate money to help keep this site going can it be taken off a persons taxes as a donation to a IRS recognized 501c3 organization? If not, that is another reason why incorporating as a group and filing with the IRS to become a 501c3 would be a good idea. It also makes it possible to try and get grant funding from many private and public sources that could go a long way in making this site self sufficient.

John Chambers

[friscomike]

Mike can answer this question, if you donate money to help keep this site going can it be taken off a persons taxes as a donation to a IRS recognized 501c3 organization? If not, that is another reason why incorporating as a group and filing with the IRS to become a 501c3 would be a good idea. It also makes it possible to try and get grant funding from many private and public sources that could go a long way in making this site self sufficient.

John Chambers


Howdy,

John is correct about deducting Frisco.org donations from taxes. We would have to incorporate, have a board of directors, meetings, minutes, etc. to request classification as a 501c3 organizations. While that's not easy, it can be done.

Best,
mike

[davidgaines]

The most important thing is that all the information that is "out there" in the form of plans, documents, images, etc gets preserved and not destroyed by unknowing relatives, friends, or worse; flood or fire. The best way that I can think of is to ensure that what you have gets scanned and posted here, in digital form for everyone to share. The more digital copies of everything that get produced, the less likelihood that something will get lost to everyone.

Does that mean we need a formal group? I just don't have a definitive answer.

I hope that this discussion is not closed or that I am re-stirring the pot of worms. The posts on this subject seem to be mainly from the movers and shakers of Frisco.org with only a few "common" members pitching in. I will try to respond to two different posts in one post. I am the son and grandson of Frisco retirees. When my dad retired I asked him for copies of any blank forms, etc. Plus, I have three Lettering and Painting drawings (20" x 68") from the Engineering Department. My sons are not interested. Those documents (including the telex recieved in Birmingham announcing the merger) need a home where they will be preserved. It needs to be a 401(c)3 home so that I, and others, can at least deduct the postage. I sent all my BN and BNSF stuff to the Friends of the BN, who sent me receipt letters.



As a board member and current President of a very active railroad Historical Society and someone who has been in several organizations and put on the first Frisco Festival, I voted yes for a formal society. The majority of former Frisco employees and their families plus the general public simply do not know about this sort of website and are not personally interested in using it, but they would be more inclined to give items or ask questions to a historical society that has a permanent address and people that can be talked too one on one. We must remember that to keep the memory of the Frisco alive and to educate the masses about it will take more than just a website. Eventually the number on this site will decline simply due to fewer people alive who personally remember the Frisco before it was merged. Like Mike says, who will take on this site if something would happen to him? With a formal organization that is run well this site can go on indefinitly and a permanent depository of Frisco items can be created. This depository could be in conjunction with some government or school library or museum. I'm willing to host here in Pittsburg or at our museum in Carona a group of people who would be willing to discuss this issue and possibly put together a plan of action. If anyone is interested in this please let me know and we can set up a date and time.

John Chambers
President, Heart of the Heartlands
Carona, Kansas
www.heartlandstrainclub.org (http://www.heartlandstrainclub.org)


Second item. "The majority of former Frisco employees and their families plus the general public simply do not know about this sort of website and are not personally interested in using it, but they would be more inclined to give items or ask questions to a historical society that has a permanent address and people that can be talked too one on one." My dad is 87. He cannot understand the internet, let alone use it even if he was interested in the Frisco. Every Frisco living retiree should get a mailing soliciting donations and offering tax free assistance in doing so.

So I vote yes.

David Gaines

[friscobob]

Another idea would be to offer monthly subscriptions. On TrainBoard we have offered a $2 monthly subscription which (I believe) nets us $1.88 per donation. At the request of several members we also offered a $5 monthly subscription.

The $2 option will deduct that amount from a PayPal account each month and nets the site approximately $22.56 yearly from each member. 25 people subscribing at that rate = $564.

That, coupled with individual donations (and possible advertising revenue) should help the site greatly.

The $2 subscription is also non-painful for people who keep a balance in PayPal as it is no more than the cost of a cup of coffee, once per month.

Just ideas...

Charlie

I've done both the yearly donations on Trainboard as well as gone to a 5 dollar-per-month option thru PayPal. We also had a fundrasing drive for new software upgrades from member donations as well. I personally have no problem contributing a couple of bucks every month toward covering costs on both sites. Not saying this to toot my own horn, but to let you know I do this because I know squat about software, and I would rather it be in the hands of folks who know what they're doing. For this, I appreciate deeply what Mike and Charlie have done. But I'm also aware that some of this stuff costs money, and no way should we have the expenses handled solely by either one of these gentlemen. As one of the slogans on Trainboard says, "Many hands make light work".

As far as a Historical Society, I'm still trying to think this out in my mind. I joined the FMIG in 1984 when Charlie Dischinger was sending out the newsletters, and was also a Frisco Folk when Alan Schmidt had the museum open. Nowadays we have this website and Richard Napper's "Meteor" online newsletter, plus the occasional gatherings here & there. We have some of the greatest folks around on this site who either model the Frisco or collect Frisco railroadiana (or do both), and they are more than willing to share their work with others.

If anything, we need to work on more frequent meetings of Friscophiles. Annual would be nice, instead of chance meetings at train shows. It's been a very long time since I last attended an FMIG convention, and that was in 1987 in Eureka Springs.

Hmm, wonder if I just argued myself into a "No" vote? ;)

[frisco4301]

My only wish was and is that we could get more of the people that aren't necessarily modelers, the historians and collectors, to participate. We are all interested in one thing primarily, and that is the preservation of the memory and as many physical things of our beloved Frisco as is practically possible.

The idea or desire amongst the group present is that a meet in Springfield may help cement a good relationship between the historicans and modelers so that our combined ranks can better serve the goal of preserving for the future all things Frisco.

I like Keith's comment regarding boosting attendance at future events. It seems that the majority of "conversation" on this site is model railroader oriented and at least this past convention, very "model railroader" focused (I was a member of this site for several years before it dawned on me what a P2K was). While I have some models, I am not a model railroader. My interest is focused on the prototype, collecting memorabilia, and history of the Frisco and all other associated roads that eventually made up the Frisco. I would guess there are a good number of others that fall into the same category as myself. All of us associated with this web site have one thing in common, a passion for the Frisco Railway. With that said, I would support a Historical Society. As discussed in previous posts, there are strong pros and cons to move in this direction, but I feel the pros far out weigh the cons. While there has been at least one well intentioned attempt of a Frisco Museum, serious consideration should be given to some sort of central repository of Frisco historically related items/documents. I am also a member of the Katy Railroad Historical Society. This group puts out a wonderful color publication every quarter plus a calendar. Would love to see something similar with this group. Jeff Cooney, Lindsay, TX

[klrwhizkid]

Jeff, first, thanks for taking the time to post your comments.

The group that was at the 2010 convention universally want to have the (for a lack of a better word) historians intimately involved in this site and in future conventions. The dilemma that we find is how to get more of everyone pulled into the greater fold of Frisco aficionados that congregate currently through this forum unless the historians come to this forum to share or ask questions in the first place. The historians are the ones that make modeling worthwhile; they are the source of factual information that make the models a reflection of the great railroad we all love.

We all want to preserve as many of the historical documents, etc that we can but unless we find some way for all of us to pull together, it will be a lost cause. How can we make the connection that allows us to see our common goal come to fruition? This will be the discussion that will begin to unfold in another thread to come soon.

[TAG1014]

I wouldn't be for any kind of "assessment" at all. Any "fees" should be voluntary. As for a "historical society" as such, here are my thoughts on that posted some time back:

"We already HAVE a "Frisco Historical (and Technical) Society." On this forum there are a couple of dozen (Likely even more) modelers, historians and trivia buffs forming an incredible bank of knowledge of the Frisco from every era and aspect of the railroad. And here, everyone is is virtually equal, no one person with a greater voice than another. A natural checkmate on any overbearing or overreaching individual--A very democratic arrangement indeed.
If there were a "society" formed with officers, minutes, committees, by-laws and all the associated trappings, the "power," like it or not, would go from distributed among many to being centralized among just a few.
Let's keep it "This Way!" It's just fine as is--when someone has a question about steam, diesels, passenger trains, the latest Atlas or Athearn model, freight car brake rigging, scenery modeling, DCC etc. etc. etc., there's someone at the ready with the answer--And we don't have to elect officers, form committees or be governed by "Roberts' Rules Of Order!" Just my two cents...

Tom

[bob_wintle]

Let's keep it "This Way!" It's just fine as is--when someone has a question about steam, diesels, passenger trains, the latest Atlas or Athearn model, freight car brake rigging, scenery modeling, DCC etc. etc. etc., there's someone at the ready with the answer--And we don't have to elect officers, form committees or be governed by "Roberts' Rules Of Order!" Just my two cents...

Tom[/QUOTE]

I couldn't agree more, to throw in my 2 cents worth also.
Bob Wintle

[friscomike]

Let's keep it "This Way!" It's just fine as is--when someone has a question about steam, diesels, passenger trains, the latest Atlas or Athearn model, freight car brake rigging, scenery modeling, DCC etc. etc. etc., there's someone at the ready with the answer--And we don't have to elect officers, form committees or be governed by "Roberts' Rules Of Order!" Just my two cents...

Tom

I couldn't agree more, to throw in my 2 cents worth also.
Bob Wintle[/QUOTE]

Howdy Bob,

I agree that we don't need Roberts Rules at this point. Many terrific ideas came from the meeting and simple is good came through loud and clear. Changing our image is not a bad thing. Indeed, we are not just a place for modelers, but for all Frisco folk. We'll focus on that in the near term.

Best,
mike

[friscomike]

I wouldn't be for any kind of "assessment" at all. Any "fees" should be voluntary. As for a "historical society" as such, here are my thoughts on that posted some time back:

"We already HAVE a "Frisco Historical (and Technical) Society." On this forum there are a couple of dozen (Likely even more) modelers, historians and trivia buffs forming an incredible bank of knowledge of the Frisco from every era and aspect of the railroad. And here, everyone is is virtually equal, no one person with a greater voice than another. A natural checkmate on any overbearing or overreaching individual--A very democratic arrangement indeed.
If there were a "society" formed with officers, minutes, committees, by-laws and all the associated trappings, the "power," like it or not, would go from distributed among many to being centralized among just a few.
Let's keep it "This Way!" It's just fine as is--when someone has a question about steam, diesels, passenger trains, the latest Atlas or Athearn model, freight car brake rigging, scenery modeling, DCC etc. etc. etc., there's someone at the ready with the answer--And we don't have to elect officers, form committees or be governed by "Roberts' Rules Of Order!" Just my two cents...

Tom

Howdy Tom,

Thanks for the comments. I think they echo the will of the folks that were at the convention. The main point the group expressed was that there is a huge group of folks who love the Frisco that don't feel welcome in the FRISCO.org community. That group is the non-modeling folks. By making sure FRISCO.org seems like a comfortable place for them to socialize and share information, we will all benefit.

Once again, Robert's Rules are irrelevant at this time. It would be nice to be popular enough, rich enough, and in demand enough to need Robert's to guide our leadership activities, but we are a long ways from that point.

All we want to do is have some fun by sharing our passion for the Frisco, either through personal experiences, our relatives, or our models. We can do that with what we are hoping to do. I'll put that forward in the next few days. First, I need to mow the lawn and catch my breath from the wonderful convention.

Best regards,
mike

[friscobob]

After re-reading this thread, and thinking about the discussions we had at our last get-together, the one thing that comes to my mind is at the very least we could have an online version of the late William Bain's book "Frisco Folks", in which we have former Frisco employees tell their stories of working on the railroad, be it in train service, maintenance of way, station agent, dispatcher, or whatever. While we're all getting along in years (I felt like the youngest person in Lenexa this past weekend, and I'm only 53), there are an awful lot of retirees who are up there in years, and sadly more are becoming too ill or are passing on.

As a model railroader and railfan, I appreciate the history behind the stories told by the retirees, as they can in themselves become valuable resources in modelint the Frisco. Because let's face it- as Frisco modelers, most of us ARE modeling history.

As for the age of those who run the site, none of us are guaranteed the next few seconds, much less the next few years. Gathering and compiling data on the history of the Frisco has been done for years on an individual (and semi-organized- I remember the Frisco Museum) basis. As I said earlier, many hands make light work.

Were it come to a vote for aoms sort of historical society, or at least a push for the historical side of the Frisco in order to get the retired rails involved, I vote "yes". I believe we have to adapt and change somewhat, or run the risk of failure. I am one of the most laid-back folks around. Shoot, I don't even know what OCD means ;) . But, I DO realize we have to make whatever change is needed to grow and be more recognized.

[tmfrisco]

It is clear from reading the posts that some did not hear what John Chambers had to say about the history only Friscophiles. They did't come to the convention because this forum is seen primarily as a modeler's site. We agreed in the discussion that while history is available here, some how we need to reach out to the non modelers and get them active here. While some discussion as to organization/fees was had, it was for future consideration only. I agree that we who model the Frisco are modeling history to some degree or another, and the input by those who are interested in history only is very valuable. If they don't feel welcome, for what ever reason, then their input is lost. Apparently from the discussion we had, we are missing a tremendous amount of history that could be very useful for everyone on this site. I say we need to be sure that everyone interested in the Frisco in any capacity should feel welcome and wanted here. Thanks, Terry

[Rick McClellan]

Some of the posts in this thread seem to group some members as modelers and some as historians. Until last Saturday I had never thought of us in terms of subgroups.

It made me wonder what I am. I model but I do historical research in order to model accurately. Mark and I did a lot of research when we commissioned the AMB wood SLSF caboose. Don Wirth has a ton of great photos and information AND he make some of the most beautiful SLSF steam engines and structures I have ever seen. Brad Slone does tons of research in all his models. He could talk for hours on the history of his models.

I wonder what group I fit into? ANSWER: I don't see subgroups. I see Frisco fans who happen to enjoy some, several or all of the facets of the Frisco.

I have not heard of anyone who did not come to the meet because it was limited to modelers so if anyone has information to that affect I would appreciate knowing more about it. We need to know who was disinfranchised and why they felt left out. This is the only way to correct any misconceptions among the members. Otherwise any attempt improve things will be futile.

It was the planning team's intent to include everyone which is why some of the clinics were prototype based (Furlong, Hoover, part of Robinson's). I did hear from several members who PM'd me indicating they had scheduling conflicts, family issues, etc. I heard nothing from the supposed "historian" group. If you know who belongs in this group, please advise.

I disagree with the notion that the website is a "modelers" site (based on the number of posts) given the large number of posts in the "Real Frisco" section, especially all the work done to locate surviving Frisco equipment. It would be very interesting to know the number of posts in both the modeling and real Frisco sites. Since I have joined my guess is that there is significantly more activity in the "real" side. Bottom Line: This site is what the members make it. If some people want more history, they should be finding it and posting it. We would love to see their posts. Honest.

What do you think?

[Rick McClellan]

Just did a quick analysis of the number of posts on the following main categories as of 9-15-10 Time 2206


Real Frisco 12,418 posts 63% of total
Frisco Modeling 7,221 posts 37% of total
Total Posts 19639

From this analysis one could conclude that it is a historical website. I like history. I like models. I like paperwork. I like memorabilia. I like slides/photos. I like people.

[TAG1014]

Hey Rick--I'm not an HO modeler and didn't attend the convention and you would probably say I'm more of a "railfan" than a modeler (I do model in N scale), but I don't feel particularly "disenfranchised."
I don't think someone who didn't attend the convention should be sitting around feeling all "misty" about being left out. I think there's plenty for all here on this chat board and the folks with similar interests are naturally going to gravitate together and those who have different interests are free to participate or not. Because everyone doesn't have the same exact interest, everyone need not be included in each and every activity organized. Just because this guy doesn't like exactly what this other guy likes, doesn't mean he cares any less for the 'ol SL and SF.

Tom

[tmfrisco]

I agree with Rick and Tom that this site offers the chance for modelers, historians, lovers of railroads, etc. However, perception is stronger than reality sometimes, and if what John Chambers said is correct, there is a group of people who do believe that this group is primarily about modeling and did not attend the convention for that reason. I agree also that trying to model the Frisco correctly takes research which can only be done from the historical perspective. I also agree with Rick and others (everyone who was involved in the discussion about this topic at the convention) that we sincerely want those who are interested in the historical aspect to become more involved. The statistics shown by Rick are very interesting, I think, and if more historically inclined members post more of what they have, then the historical statistic would be even greater. Thanks, Terry

[FriscoFriend]

After re-reading this thread, and thinking about the discussions we had at our last get-together, the one thing that comes to my mind is at the very least we could have an online version of the late William Bain's book "Frisco Folks", in which we have former Frisco employees tell their stories of working on the railroad, be it in train service, maintenance of way, station agent, dispatcher, or whatever.


The late Rev. Terry Murray from here in Wichita had "Frisco Folks" republished several years ago in paperback form. His good friend Larry Parrish is helping his wife sell his RR related assets and had copies at KC that he was selling for a great price. I am leaving town for a couple of days, but upon my return I will get with Larry and see if we can set up a way for anyone who wants a copy to get one at a great price.

Stay tuned for more info!

[mvtelegrapher]

One of the people who feels that this site is more model focused has already posted in this thread, please go back two days ago and read Jeff Cooneys post. He knows of several people who have the same impression and I know of several in my area who have the same thought. One of them is Bob King of Oronogo. Bob has done much research on the Frisco in the four state area but Bob is not a public speaker. He would be willing to answer questions when asked but I don't think you will be able to get him to give a clinic. Two other people who would be good additions to any historical group but who do not own computers are Ron Morgan of Pittsburg and Don Keeney of Fort Scott. Ron's family worked for the Frisco and Don has a large collection of Frisco china and memorabilia. I also know that Louis Greisemier and John Sanders of Springfield would make great additions to a Frisco Historical group. Gordon Garrett of Springfield also has a great deal of knowledge of the Frisco, he was formerly on the board of the Frisco Museum, but Gordon also does not own a computer. We need to think of a way to involve these people in this group, whether it be a formal historical society or more conventions and get togethers. I'm hoping to get these folks to be involved in next years convention if we can have it in Springfield. If we keep building are base the more we can insure the future of this endeavor.

John Chambers

[FriscoFriend]

John Chambers makes a valid point that we need to address concerning people (mainly historians) who don't have a computer but may like to be involved. This is an issue that we need to address.

Having said that for the purpose of planning for future festivals, I would like to put my perspective on the one we just had. First of all, I think this is a matter of perspective and marketing. If one looks at the festival from the historical or prototypical standpoint, this is what they might conclude:


(1) The operating session at Rick's on Friday night was very casual and his layout could be viewed and presented as an accurate representation of a large portion of the real Frisco as it appeared in the mid 1970's. He also has a large collection of drawings, track charts, photos, etc. some of which are displayed in a hallway with Museum type lighting. Could it be viewed and protrayed as a Museum? In my opinion, absolutely yes! I might add that there are other Frisco layouts including Jim Senese's in Tulsa and Ron William's in Springfield that could be protrayed in the same manner.

(2) This has already been touched on, but most of the clinics on Saturday were of a prototypical nature. Both mine and Patrick Furlong's were definately prototypically oriented. Keith's presentation was historically based as well with some wonderful scenes of the area he was modeling and the title could have been tweaked a little to make it more palatable to a historian's viewpoint. Granted Mike's operating clinc, Richard's decoder clinic, and Gary's F-Unit conversion clinic were modeler oriented. By merely switching either mine or Patrick's to a different time slot would have give the prototype oriented person a full day of history.

(3) The excellent West Bottoms tour conducted by Mark Davidson was about as prototypically and historical oriented as anything could be including dinner at a famous Frisco employee haunt.

(4) The slide show by John and others was prototypically oriented, period.

(5) The train ride on Sunday was also a prototypical and historical activity.

(6) I might add the the day planned for the ladie's was different, unique, and well-received.

It's all a matter of perception and how something is presented. Look back through the thread about the convention and you will realize that the committee did a fantastic job of telling everyone what to expect in every activity with the possible exception of protraying Rick's layout ( Item # 1) in a different maner. If there is anything to be learned for future events, it's just that, how it's presented.

Respectfully submitted:

[friscobob]

The late Rev. Terry Murray from here in Wichita had "Frisco Folks" republished several years ago in paperback form. His good friend Larry Parrish is helping his wife sell his RR related assets and had copies at KC that he was selling for a great price. I am leaving town for a couple of days, but upon my return I will get with Larry and see if we can set up a way for anyone who wants a copy to get one at a great price.

Stay tuned for more info!

I bought a copy of that very book at the convention, and am eagerly reading it now. Due to limited funds (remodeling a house will do that to you), I regret I wasn't able to take better advantage of what else Larry had on the swap tables, but perhaps he and the Murray family will offer that for sale here in the Swap Meet section, or at least on hoyardsale.com

[Rick McClellan]

One of the people who feels that this site is more model focused has already posted in this thread, please go back two days ago and read Jeff Cooneys post. He knows of several people who have the same impression and I know of several in my area who have the same thought. One of them is Bob King of Oronogo. Bob has done much research on the Frisco in the four state area but Bob is not a public speaker. He would be willing to answer questions when asked but I don't think you will be able to get him to give a clinic. Two other people who would be good additions to any historical group but who do not own computers are Ron Morgan of Pittsburg and Don Keeney of Fort Scott. Ron's family worked for the Frisco and Don has a large collection of Frisco china and memorabilia. I also know that Louis Greisemier and John Sanders of Springfield would make great additions to a Frisco Historical group. Gordon Garrett of Springfield also has a great deal of knowledge of the Frisco, he was formerly on the board of the Frisco Museum, but Gordon also does not own a computer. We need to think of a way to involve these people in this group, whether it be a formal historical society or more conventions and get togethers. I'm hoping to get these folks to be involved in next years convention if we can have it in Springfield. If we keep building are base the more we can insure the future of this endeavor.

John Chambers


John,

Thanks for your response to my request for more information regarding people who did not come to this years Frisco Convention. I think we now have some info we can act on.

I read Jeff Cooney's post before posting my response yesterday. I did not see anything in his post that indicated he was not coming due to the content of the convention. He indicated that he thought the past meet was model focused and the website was model focused but he did not cite that as a reason for not coming. Maybe Jeff can tell us.

What I did hear from a lot of people is bad timing, sports conflicts, family obligations, etc. Those things will be difficult, if not impossible, to overcome.

If there are some who perceive this site as more modeling than prototype, they can simply count the posts like I did yesterday. With almost 2/3 of the posts falling under the prototype, it's difficult to justify the position that this is a model focused site. It's not even close. It is my hope that those reading this post with the model focus perception, check out the numbers (not my numbers) and change their perception to match the facts.

Regarding the meet last year, it is true that we had two modeling clinics (the third one is escaping me for some reason), models for show and models at the swap tables. However, we also had several hours of prototype slides and a prototype train ride to a prototype museum and back. I still remember that Chicken Annies chicken and I classify that as "prototype." If I had to tally up the time spent on models and the time spent on prototype I would estimate 50/50 or 55/45 prototype. In addition, my swap table had some prototype items for sale. As hard as I try, I'm just not able to agree that the meet in Pittsburg was model focused. Lucky for me, I love it all.

If next year's meet is going to be held where I think it is, few locations could be more prototypical that than location.

Regarding those railfan/historians without computers (Morgan, Keeney, Gordon, King), that does present a challenge but not a huge problem. This is where people who know them can invite them. I would have invited them but I did not know these gentlemen existed until you mentioned their names. My recommendation is that those on the website invite those not on the website. Sounds simple but I bet it would work, at least the inviting part. Posting the info in a hobby store would probably not work. If there is some place railfan/historians frequent, we could provide a flyer but I don't know what common place railfans/historians go to (like a hobby store) and could receive this type of communication. Did you happen to mention this meet to them?

BTW I would love to see a memorabilia clinic, especially on railroad china and silver because I am really dumb in these areas.

Regarding Sanders and Griesemer, are they not on the website already? If not, I would be very surprised if Ron Williams, Ron White or Ray Wells (all who attended this year's meet) did not inform them of the meet. Louis is a N scale modeler and has a vast memorabilia collection on the Frisco so he is on both sides of the perceived fence. I have not heard from John in a while but I will not presume to know why he or Louis did not come. I am sure they have their reasons that are far away from their affection for the Frisco.

I believe it is important for all fans of the Frisco to support each other as much as we can. We also need to communicate both on and off this website to keep everyone informed. It will only be as good as we make it.

What do the other members think?

[yardmaster]

I believe it is important for all fans of the Frisco to support each other as much as we can. We also need to communicate both on and off this website to keep everyone informed. It will only be as good as we make it.


Rick, I think you summarized my feelings much more concisely than I could have done!

For me, timing was everything. Even without a pending house sale/move (which was absorbing my time during the 2010 convention), we had too many activities going on with my kids.

I guess I do not see the modeler/collector-historian dichotomy; it has always appeared to be a symbiotic relationship. As a modeler, I need the knowledge possessed by collectors-historians in order to know that I'm accurately modeling the whole Frisco picture.

At the same time, while some historians are not active modelers, any with whom I've ever spoken seem to appreciate the fact that there are modelers who are striving to preserve the SL-SF in miniature and have always bent over backwards to assist my efforts.

[Charlie Dix]

I guess I do not see the modeler/collector-historian dichotomy; it has always appeared to be a symbiotic relationship. As a modeler, I need the knowledge possessed by collectors-historians in order to know that I'm accurately modeling the whole Frisco picture.

I agree. A person would not model the Frisco without an original interest in the railroad as their foundation, especially since it is a fallen flag.

Modeling is the second level of interest in the Frisco. It's just that some people would rather talk (on the forum) about modeling since they are actively doing it.

Some people are conducting research but the majority of people absorb that knowledge rather than contribute to producing it.

Modeling is a way of re-living the past. There should not be any seperation of people according to their specific interest (in my opinion). The forum has seperate areas for different things and that's great.

Charlie

[mad_dan_eccles]

In my view the primary purpose of a formally constituted HS is to collect and make arrangements for the long term safekeeping of documents and artefacts and not primarily as an information exchange.

This excellent board servers the exchange purpose well, but without a formal organisation with it's own premises and secure long term funding to meet the first purpose, there is a serious possibilty that the material collected may get disposed of by family and friends who don't share our fascination with old trains when w shuffle off this mortal coil.

Now this long term funding issue is one many historical orgnisations face. Some like the Southern Railway HA have been able to partner with existing museums by donating or placing material on long term loan to ensure that it is kept safe.

Cataloguing and preservation have taken a priority over quicker wider dissemination, but the fruits of that farsightedness are stating to pay off in the form of a number of useful books.

My first concern is not making historical material generally avaialable (though that is the long term objective) but to make sure that is is properly conserved and protected and catalogued for the benefit of future researchers. A formally constituted society stands a better chance of doing that than a loose federation of individuals

I voted "yes" as there will obviously need to be a lot more discussion on the subject in any case

Regards to all

Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton
Ramona CA

[klrwhizkid]

The biggest reason historical societies have problems is the same reason many marriages have problems: money. Everyone has good intentions but it takes hard work and money to make either work.

The ultimate issue is that, more and more, the cost of proper space (humidity, temperature, light) to physically store historical documents and paper materials is a major concern, whereas megabytes are easily and cheaply stored. Documents and images of objects are perfect for digital storage and are thus perfectly preserved as-is with no further degradation. The main concerns are getting the digital images first and then protecting them (backup).

The collection and storage of objects, while highly desirable, requires space and care and also limits access to those who can physically be in the presence of those objects.

I am not trying to take sides in this discussion, but merely trying to point out the pros and cons for better decision making.

Either way for the collector who wants to see that their items are preserved for posterity, it is important to make certain that the collector's relatives or executors know their desires for the disposition of their collection.

[meteor910]

Some of the posts in this thread seem to group some members as modelers and some as historians. Until last Saturday I had never thought of us in terms of subgroups.

It made me wonder what I am. I model but I do historical research in order to model accurately. Mark and I did a lot of research when we commissioned the AMB wood SLSF caboose. Don Wirth has a ton of great photos and information AND he make some of the most beautiful SLSF steam engines and structures I have ever seen. Brad Slone does tons of research in all his models. He could talk for hours on the history of his models.

I wonder what group I fit into? ANSWER: I don't see subgroups. I see Frisco fans who happen to enjoy some, several or all of the facets of the Frisco.

I have not heard of anyone who did not come to the meet because it was limited to modelers so if anyone has information to that affect I would appreciate knowing more about it. We need to know who was disinfranchised and why they felt left out. This is the only way to correct any misconceptions among the members. Otherwise any attempt improve things will be futile.

It was the planning team's intent to include everyone which is why some of the clinics were prototype based (Furlong, Hoover, part of Robinson's). I did hear from several members who PM'd me indicating they had scheduling conflicts, family issues, etc. I heard nothing from the supposed "historian" group. If you know who belongs in this group, please advise.

I disagree with the notion that the website is a "modelers" site (based on the number of posts) given the large number of posts in the "Real Frisco" section, especially all the work done to locate surviving Frisco equipment. It would be very interesting to know the number of posts in both the modeling and real Frisco sites. Since I have joined my guess is that there is significantly more activity in the "real" side. Bottom Line: This site is what the members make it. If some people want more history, they should be finding it and posting it. We would love to see their posts. Honest.

What do you think?

Be it a meeting on the Frisco prototype, or on Frisco modeling, or anything in between, I would come to the meet if at all possible.

I couldn't attend last years meeting in Pittsburg because I was on a vacation trip to Utah/Arizona - Bryce/Zion/Grand Canyou National Parks.

I couldn't make it to this year's meeting in Overland Park because I was on a family trip to Germany & Switzerland. Just got back home late last night. Terrific trip! Lots of rail miles on Deutsche Bahn. Terrific rail system !!!

Looking forward to 2011's meeting! I'll offer to do a clinic or whatever is needed.

Ken

[renapper]

I voted yes to forming a Historical Society. I was on the BOD for the Frisco Museum for many years and I was a life member. I was the one that gave all of the Frisco Depot photos to the museum; I was very sorry to see it desolve, but one person simply cannot do all that work. Becoming a formal 501c3 organization is woth the time and trouble. Having four officers can help spread out the load and keep this website going strong. As 501c3 we could take the Station list books, etc. that the membership has stached away, reproduce them and sell them. This would do two things, get the information out and make money for the maintainance of the web site. The business meeting could be held at the annual Frisco Convention, and, yes, a 501c3 organization can make money, up to $25,000 per year. I am willing to continue with The Meteor, but it sure would be nice if some of you would wirte some articles for it.
Richard

[meteor910]

I am willing to continue with The Meteor, but it sure would be nice if some of you would wirte some articles for it.
Richard

Richard -

Right now, I'm adding some detail and finishing off a Walthers (new release) o/w F-M H10-44, SLSF 270. I'm taking notes as I work, so I could easily write a short article on it for you for The Meteor, with pics of the finished loco.

It will likely take me another week, however. When is your deadine?

Like you, I sure wish others from this organization would write up some things they have done for you, so that each issue is not always full of stuff from the five or six of us who have provided all the material so far.

Ken

[renapper]

Ken,
I can take the aritcle anytime you finish it. thanks.
Richard

[meteor910]

Will do, but it might take a while yet. I had a set-back last night with the F-M. :mad:

Ken

[friscochoctaw]

There was way too much discussion to be covered in one sitting, but here is a suggestion (if not already covered), take it or leave it:

If we do start a Frisco Historical Society, why don't we just take over the incorporated (and defunct) SLSF Historical Society in MO and go from there? It's already established, all we need is some one willing to do whatever voodoo it is they need to do to get hold of it and report whatever needs to be reported.

Yes, we already are basically a historical society, but shouldn't we seek a name/establishment to have associated with ourselves and our conventions, other than just a website: Frisco.org, that sounds about like "The Online Encyclopedia Convention, sponsored by: wikipedia.com or urbandictionary.com"

Respectfully submitted,
John C.

[tomd6]

There was way too much discussion to be covered in one sitting, but here is a suggestion (if not already covered), take it or leave it:

If we do start a Frisco Historical Society, why don't we just take over the incorporated (and defunct) SLSF Historical Society in MO and go from there? It's already established, all we need is some one willing to do whatever voodoo it is they need to do to get hold of it and report whatever needs to be reported.

Yes, we already are basically a historical society, but shouldn't we seek a name/establishment to have associated with ourselves and our conventions, other than just a website: Frisco.org, that sounds about like "The Online Encyclopedia Convention, sponsored by: wikipedia.com or urbandictionary.com"

Respectfully submitted,
John C.

If the SLSF Historical Society is defunct, wouldn't that mean we would have to obtain IRS approval for 501(c)(3) status as a non- profit ? Some states have rules that do not permit the reuse of corporate names.
Just some thoughts to ponder.

[meteor910]

Vince York, a life member of the Missouri Pacific Historical Society, is an attorney (former McDonnell-Douglas/Boeing) and did the incorporation and registration work for the Frisco Railroad Historical Society (I don't recall if that was the exact name we used) in the mid-1980's and our proposed publication The Meteor.

I'll get with Vince and ask him if any of the work we did back then is still of any possible use to a new organization. Probably not, but we'll see.

Ken

[gstout]

Re: the appeals for contributions to the METEOR, of course this is a problem every organization goes through. I used to the "passenger editor" for MPHS and an associate editor for PTJ, so I know about this. What kind of articles are you looking for?

GS

[Joseph Toth]

I hope I won´t have to eat crow again, but I voted yes for a Frisco Historical Society, despite the fact I am a newcomer. I turned 65 on the 4th of July and retired off of the Deutsche Bahn. It has serious problems and anyone who has vacationed Germany recently and didn´t have to ride an InterCity Express without the air conditioner working in 90 degree heat, congratulations! Jim Wrinn, editor of Trains Magazine, had high praises for the DB too, but this is another issue.

I was born in Dallas, Texas, July 4, 1946, and raised just north of there in Farmers Branch. The Katy´s Dallas-Denton branch ran through the town and the Frisco´s Ft. Worth-Sherman mainline ran behind our chicken farm, albiet with some woods in between. I was always more of a Katy fan than a Frisco. My great-grandfather and an uncle were Katy men in Denison. I was to go on to finish high school in Tampa, Florida, and volunteer for the US Army Transportation Corps. Schooled at Ft. Eustus, Virginia, in the Fall of 64 with Saturday morning steam-ups were fantastic! Then the rest of my tour of duty was spent in Germany with steam steam steam on the German Federal Railway (Deutsche Bundesbahn).

After my discharge, I returned to Dallas and hired out on the Cotton Belt as a switchman. I also switched for the SSW in Ft. Worth. Cut off the extra board in September 68, I hired out with the Santa Fe. I marked up on the East Dallas Yard extra board. There I would remain until my move to Germany in late 76. I retired off of the DB last year having been a passenger service represenative at the Nuremberg Passenger Station. Yes, I speak German, albeit with a heavy Texas accent!

Summer of 1961 found me in Farmers Branch between a move from Florida that would take me back to the Sunshine State in 1962. I spent quite a few hot Texas summer days at the depot in Carrollton. The depot was owned and manned by the Cotton Belt and the agent, Kenneth Dafft, befriended this Texas teen. It helped me in my decision to become a railroad man! Carrollton was a neat place to watch trains and was a joint agency for the Frisco and Cotton Belt. The Frisco, Katy and Cotton Belt crossed at grade right at the depot. Covered wagons were the norm on the Frisco in pure ABBA lashups provided by both EMD and Alco. Katy´s Denton Local that summer usually drew the #29, a Deramus rebuilt EMD Baldwin switcher and a well worn Sloan Yellow wooden caboose, the #823! Cotton Belt still ran F units on their freights in the true Blue Steak Merchandise tradition advertised on their boxcars.

Working for John Santa Fe in Dallas was a great place to railroad. You had the feeling you were part of the family. The Santa Fe´s East Dallas Yard was a joint agency for the Frisco and Louisiana & Arkansas (KCS). Frisco would deliver solid coal trains from Oklahoma to the L&A who in turn moved them to the Texas & Northern for final delivery to Lone Star Steel in East Texas. Frisco powered their trains with SD45s whereas L&A ran faded Deramus red F units and pretty white GP30s. Santa Fe´s job was to exchange cabooses for the SL-SF and L&A. We also had to provide pusher service on the outbound loaded L&A trains as there was a grade leaving the East Dallas Yard up the Paris Branch towards Farmersville. Frisco´s power coupled up to outbound empty coal hoppers for the trip back to Oklahoma. Frisco´s inbound loaded coal trains were a site to behold! Great big SD45´s coming up-grade from the Trinity River bottoms into East Dallas Yard taxed the 45s to the limit and they really put on a great show! From black and yellow covered wagons in 1961 Carrollton to 1970s red-orange and white SD45s in Dallas, this all made a Frisco fan out of me! As a kid I always longed for a set of Lionel Texas Special F3s with the Frisco and Katy herald proudly displayed on the cab units. Poorer than a church mouse, I could only dream about them and the beautiful layout on the rear cover of the 1957 Lionel catalog!

This sounds as if I got off track but to put this in perspective I would like to see the return of the Frisco Historical Society with set dues and an honest to goodness magazine format publication and a calendar! I did join the Santa Fe Historical & Technical Society for one year and I still have a lot of respect for it but their decision to increase the yearly dues for overseas membership to $66.00 without a calendar and my fixed income due to retirement regretfully made me have to decline membership for an additional year.

I have cancelled subscriptions to all the major railroad publications for the same reason. Kalmbach Publications really takes overseas readers to the cleaners for overseas delivery of magazines. Carstens rates are fair and within reason but again, I am confronted with the fixed income syndrom. OK, Joe, you´ll drop the Frisco bunch too? No I won´t! I have adjusted my hobby dollar to permit me to join a reorganized Frisco Historical Society and I am taking out a subscription to Tim Blackwell´s excellent bi-monthly magazine The Cowcatcher! It covers railroading, both prototypical and modeling, throughout the Great Southwest and this includes Frisco territory!

By the way, Ed Seay, Jr. put me onto The Cowcatcher. Junior literaly read me a copy over the phone! He still runs the M-A-L Hobby Shop in Irving, Texas. It is still one of the good old boy down home family run businesses where you get a big Texas sized Howdy! when you walk through the door! No funny recorded message or heartless machine to do bizz with here!

OK, Get Goin´ and reorganize the FHS and be sure and sign me up as a new charter member.

Thanks y´all!

Joe Toth
The Trinity River Bottoms Boomer