Diesel Locomotive Pocket Guide 3/1978

[klrwhizkid]

Posted below are Diagrams from the Frisco Diesel Locomotives Vest Pocket Diagrams Rev Y Date 3-78 from the Office of C.M.O.M.P.

[Iantha_Branch]

interesting info. What is the formula to convert real feet to scale inches?

[Sirfoldalot]

interesting info. What is the formula to convert real feet to scale inches?

Ethan .. this website will convert any measurement you can think of.
I have found it very useful.......

http://www.printmini.com/calc.shtml

Click on "Link to this Site" on the left and follow directions to add the calculator to your desktop.

If I did not copy the correct http - let me know and I will try again.

[TAG1014]

If you're in HO (1/87 scale), divide feet by 87, then multiply that number by 12. For instance if you have something 60 feet long, divide it by 87 (60/87). That gives you .689. Multiply by 12. That gives you 8.628 inches. Feet/87 x 12 = Inches.

Tom

[Sirfoldalot]

The more correct answer would be:

60/87.0857*12= 8.2677 inches :)

[Sirfoldalot]

Keith .. I said it once before - You sure post some interesting and good stuff.

What would have been the purpose of the Pocket Guide? :confused:

Sure wish that the F's and E's had been included along with all the Alco's.

[TAG1014]

Sir Fold--My ruler doesn't have 8.2677 on it! :)

Tom

[Iantha_Branch]

I checked that link and it does work. Yea and 2 more that weren't on there are the 44 tonner and the NW1

[bob_wintle]

Why worry about using conversions? Just purchase a good scale rule and you are ready to go. Just another one of my policies. Less math more models.
El Bob Oh
Math Dummy

[TAG1014]

Right Bob--A scale rule solves it all!

Tom

[meteor910]

What would have been the purpose of the Pocket Guide? :confused:
Sure wish that the F's and E's had been included along with all the Alco's.

Sirfold ..... Like most all railroads, the Frisco did a set of locomotive diagrams, both steam and diesel, to allow the troops around the system to keep track of engine numbers, classes, HP, gear ratios, fluid capacities, brake systems, builder, build date, tractive effort, yada yada yada. These were usually in booklets about four inches tall and eight inches wide. They also did similar diagrams for freight and passenger cars, etc.

In the early 1950's, the SLSF started to issue simplified diesel locomotive diagram booklets for the diesel roster - these being only 2.5 inches tall by 4.5 inches long. They called these "vest pocket" diagram books because of their small size. To my knowledge, they only did this "downsizing" for the diesel fleet. I don't know how many issues they put out - I have eight different issues in my collection - the first in August, 1952. The posting from Kieth shows the Revision Y issue of March, 1978. I only know of one later one - Rev Z of November, 1978, which I have. Who knows - they might have started with Rev A, so there could have been 26 of them! As far as I know, the GP50's never made it into the vest pocket diagram book.

You asked about the E-unit diagrams. Attached FYI is a scan of the three SLSF E-unit sheets. These sheets are from a diagram book issued before the vest pocket diagram booklets came into being. They show a bit more information. I've included the diagram for the original E7's, the later diagram for the rebuilt E7's, and the diagram for the new E8's. Note the last two sheets also list all the "Racehorse" names (even though they all were not race horses!).

Notice also that the E7 rebuilds included a regearing, from 55:22 to 57:20 to slow them down to better mate with the new E8's, and to give the E7's a bit more TE.

Ken

[klrwhizkid]

I picked up the posted Vest Pocket Guide from ebay for $2.99 - just 'cause (Frisco stuff!).

The E and F units were not listed because they were long gone by 3/1978.

The main reason I share everything I can on this site is so it will be archived electronically.

[Sirfoldalot]

Sir Fold--My ruler doesn't have 8.2677 on it! :)

Tom

TOM ... You must have bought the "sale" model! :D:D:D:D

[rcmck]

Thank you Keith and Ken - a really good Post !! It's wonderful to gain new knowledge about the Frisco - had no idea they used these.

Bob McKeighan
Lenexa, KS

:)

[Sirfoldalot]

I must go and sit in the corner for a time-out. My age must be showing again. Of course I know why they published the guide. We had "pocket cards" (triple folded printed both sides) that listed aircraft models weight, fuel, tire press, hyd press, gross wts, empty wts, landing wts, fuel cap, yada, yada. Bout 15 items for each model - 7 different models for the Connie alone, 4 on the 727, 5 on the 707, 3 on the 747, and more yadas' for the other makes. :o:o

Tom - hope you realize -just funning. :D

Keith - I am glad you are posting this stuff for persons like me. Why I love this site so much is the information I gain from it. :cool:

[meteor910]

Sherrel - As a very frequent "seat warmer" on TWA during the 1980's and 1990's while I was with Monsanto, I tried to get a copy of the TWA "fleet diagrams", or at least a roster listing each aircraft and model number. I had a couple of guys promise to send me one, but it never came. :(

Must have been against the rules or something! Certainly would be today.

Ken

ps - Did you fly in and out of STL much? If you did, chances are I rode behind you a few times! I did STL to Detroit, Salt Lake, Atlanta, Orange Cy, New Orleans, Portland, New York, Miami and Philly a lot.

[meteor910]

My Frisco E-unit diagrams I posted last night are pretty hard to read clearly. I scanned a xerox copy of all three on one page that I used in some articles I authored a while ago. Sorry about that.

I looked through my "stacks" this morning and found the three source diagrams. A scan of each individual diagram is posted below ..... much easier to read.

Do any of you know any of the details of the MKT E7's for the Texas Special that ran with SLSF 2000 and 2003 on the TS? Does anybody have a diagram of them? I'm interested to see if they were geared 55:22 originally like the SLSF E7's were, and if the MKT then regeared them down to 57:20 when the Frisco regeared 2000-2005?

I think I'll pose that question to the Katy H&TS today.

Ken

[Sirfoldalot]

I had a couple of guys promise to send me one, but it never came. :(
Must have been against the rules or something! Certainly would be today.
Ken

Well, Ken, I may have a few things "buried" somewhere. When I come across them, I will send you some. Was not against any rules that I ever heard. Really is pretty public knowledge. I say buried because of a couple moves in the last 4 years. Have no idea where to start. :eek:
Will get back to you on the flights.

Thanks for re-posting the diagrams. I had spots in my eyes looking at the first ones. :D

[TAG1014]

Sir Fold--Good thing there are electronic calculators, or I wouldn't have even gotten TWO decimal places! :)

Tom

[TAG1014]

Ken--I don't have any Katy gear ratio documents or other info, but from years of looking at photos, I never saw their E-7's running with any other kind of units. Just one or two E-7's by themselves. I've seen consists (On the Texas Special) with their E-8's mixed with F-7B's, PA's, even Frisco E-8's. FYI.

Tom

[Karl]

Ken,

There are two items of interest regarding the two sheets on the EA-7's.

The first sheet treats the 2-unit set as a single locomotive. It didn't take the railroads long to lose the idea of a "semi-permanently coupled" locomotive set.

Notably absent from the first sheet is the mention of electro-pneumatic brakes. The second sheet lists this function as being non-operative.

-keb-


My Frisco E-unit diagrams I posted last night are pretty hard to read clearly. I scanned a xerox copy of all three on one page that I used in some articles I authored a while ago. Sorry about that.

I looked through my "stacks" this morning and found the three source diagrams. A scan of each individual diagram is posted below ..... much easier to read.

Do any of you know any of the details of the MKT E7's for the Texas Special that ran with SLSF 2000 and 2003 on the TS? Does anybody have a diagram of them? I'm interested to see if they were geared 55:22 originally like the SLSF E7's were, and if the MKT then regeared them down to 57:20 when the Frisco regeared 2000-2005?

I think I'll pose that question to the Katy H&TS today.

Ken

[meteor910]

Karl - Good observations on the E7's! Though the Frisco and the Katy originally regarded the two-unit E7 sets as a single locomotive, at least the Frisco had the sense to number each differently. The two MKT E7's were MKT 101 & 101A, and/or 101A & 101B or 101A & 101C, or something like that.

Also note no mention of top speed on the original E7's. They would fly like the wind - far faster than anyone had the right to go on the curvy hog-back profile down the Frisco Eastern Division from StL.

FYI, I posted the question to the Katy HS and to a couple of MKT friends about the gearing on the MKT E7's. We'll see what they say.

And ..:o.. I forgot to crop the rebuilt E7 diagram. It's reposted below. I'll get this right yet!

Ken

ps - Note also the E7's had only one steam generator, 3000 lbs, while the E8's had two 2500 lb units. You always wanted to be riding behind a set of E8's in January/February!

[Sirfoldalot]

HELP: Someone please explain to me what a gear ratio means?
57:20 or 62:15 ??:confused:

[klrwhizkid]

The gear ratio 57:20 means that for every 57 revolutions of the electric traction motor, the axle (wheels) will revolve 20 times. Or... a ratio of 2.85 to 1.

Most of the time gear ratios are expressed in the latter format; resolved to a number versus 1. Typically the number is derived from the number of drive teeth in a gear set compared to the number of driven teeth in that set.
Example: if the drive gear has 228 teeth and the driven gear has 80 teeth, then the gear ratio is express as 228/40 or 2.85:1. This may be pretty close to the actual number of teeth on the gears in drive unit!??

My response is based on a generic technical background.

I'm sure I will be corrected by someone technically oriented in railroading if I am wrong.

[meteor910]

HELP: Someone please explain to me what a gear ratio means?
57:20 or 62:15 ??:confused:

Sherrel -

See, that's the problem with you jet pilots - you never had to shift gears!

55:22 on the original E7's means 55 revolutions of the traction motor spins the truck wheel 22 times. This is a higher (faster) gearing than the 57:20 ratio, where it takes 57 revolutions of the traction motor to spin the wheel only 20 times. Obviously, the 57:20 is a "lower" gear, better for tractive effort, better for starting up, better on hills, but ..... slower at the high end.

There is a gear on the end shaft of the traction motor, and a gear it meshes with on the truck axle. There are multiple ratios available for them.

Ken

[Sirfoldalot]

See, that's the problem with you jet pilots - you never had to shift gears!
Ken

Thanks, Guys', That I can understand, I think. Am I right in thinking that the lower the first number is - the faster the speed?

We only had two speeds - Fast and Faster. :D:D:D

[meteor910]

Well, it really depends on the ratio between the two, as Keith explained.

For example, the Frisco EMD F3's had a gear ratio of 62:15, a ratio of 4.133. The Frisco ALCo FA's had a ratio of 74:18, for a ratio of 4.111. Essentially the same, so Frisco's EMD F3's and ALCo FA's easily ran together.

Note these ratios arer quite a bit "lower" (higher number) than those for the passenger E's. These were freight locomotives, built to pull, not run. The max speed for the F3's and the FA's was listed on the diagram as 65MPH, quite a bit lower than the E's.

Ken

[meteor910]

Do any of you know any of the details of the MKT E7's for the Texas Special that ran with SLSF 2000 and 2003 on the TS? Does anybody have a diagram of them? I'm interested to see if they were geared 55:22 originally like the SLSF E7's were, and if the MKT then regeared them down to 57:20 when the Frisco regeared 2000-2005?

I think I'll pose that question to the Katy H&TS today.

Ken

Update - I have not heard back from the Katy RR HS yet, but it turns out I do have a diesel diagram book for Katy's diesels. Shows you how well I remember what stuff I have back in the "stacks".

Interestingly, it is also a "vest pocket" diagram book, very similar to the Frisco ones.

Looking at the 4/7/55 MKT issue, the answer is "yes", the Katy did regear their two Texas Special E7's, MKT 101A & 101C, down to 57:20, just as the Frisco did to the SLSF E7's. The diagram does not show the previous ratio, but it obviously has been updated on the sheet, and these units were almost certainly identical to the Frisco E7's when purchased, with an original gear ratio from EMD of 55:22.

The Katy's E8's that they bought after the two E7's were also geared for 57:20, just as the Frisco's were.

The verdict must have been 100% - neither railroad liked those 55:22 speed demon E7's.

Ken

[Karl]

There was a Rev AA Vest Pocket Book, which was dated 2-1980. It contained the SD-38-2's, the SD-40-2's, and SW-1, number 10




The posting from Kieth shows the Revision Y issue of March, 1978. I only know of one later one - Rev Z of November, 1978, which I have. Who knows - they might have started with Rev A, so there could have been 26 of them! As far as I know, the GP50's never made it into the vest pocket diagram book.



Ken

[Karl]

Attached are a couple of relevant pages from the SD-45 User Manual. The SD-45 could be purchased with three gear ratios.

It was possible to exceed the designed speed, and bad things could occur. The centrifugal force would be great enough the throw the armature windings out of their laminations and destroy the motor. Conversely, bad things could occur to a pair of the 100 mph EA-7's, which might be lugging an extra-long Texas Special up Dixon Hill, at a speed below 12-14 mph. Stay at that speed for too long, and the motors are fried.


Thanks, Guys', That I can understand, I think. Am I right in thinking that the lower the first number is - the faster the speed?

We only had two speeds - Fast and Faster. :D:D:D

[meteor910]

There was a Rev AA Vest Pocket Book, which was dated 2-1980. It contained the SD-38-2's, the SD-40-2's, and SW-1, number 10

Karl - Indeed, you are correct. I overlooked the Rev AA.

Here are the vest pocket issues I have. Does anybody have any others?

8/15/52 (no Rev letter, signed by Lee Buffington - makes it a treasure!)

Rev F (no date)

Rev H (no date)

Rev K (no date)

Rev W 9/73

Rev Y 3/78

Rev Z 11/78

Rev AA 2/80

Ken

[Karl]

I have Rev U, 6-71, which still contained diagrams for 44 tonners 7 & 8, the FM Switchers, and the RS-2m's

[meteor910]

Karl - Indeed, you are correct. I overlooked the Rev AA.

Here are the vest pocket issues I have. Does anybody have any others?

8/15/52 (no Rev letter, signed by Lee Buffington - makes it a treasure!)

Rev F (no date)

Rev H (no date)

Rev K (no date)

Rev W 9/73

Rev Y 3/78

Rev Z 11/78

Rev AA 2/80

Ken

Whoa!, I stand corrected! I thought I had more Frisco vest pocket diagram books than those I listed above, but I couldn't find them all. Reason is, the others are xerox copies of issues Lee had. He let me borrow them and copy them. I have not gone to the trouble to cut all the copies up and make them in the vest pocket sized booklet. So, here's the complete list I have, including the copies:

8/15/52 (no Rev letter, signed by Lee Buffington - makes it a treasure!)

Rev F (no date)

Rev H (no date)

Rev K (no date)

Rev M (no date)

Rev R 5/68

Rev T 1/70

Rev U 6/71

Rev V 6/72

Rev W 9/73

Rev Y 3/78

Rev Z 11/78

Rev AA 2/80

Now I feel better. I recall Lee saying he had a bunch of others, but he couldn't find them. I bet he had them all during his time with the Frisco!

Again, does anybody in the group have any other vest pocket issues?

Ken

[TAG1014]

One time on my way to work at the Post Office (4AM reporting time), I was a little early and went by the Springfield depot while #106 was arriving so I stopped to watch the activities. The train was fairly late (About an hour if I remember) and out on the platform, I heard the enginemen and trainmen's chatter about why it was late. It was Christmastime and the train had eleven express reefers of mail on the head end. Twenty cars total and a freight B-unit sandwiched between the E's. The talk was that the reason it was late, the B-unit cut out at 65 MPH (Governor maybe or gear ratio??) and the engineer couldn't make up time. So I guess the B-unit was just a helper to get it started?? That's the first I ever knew about different gearing for diesels. I thought they could be hooked up any old way. Anyhow that was Christmas season 1961 or 1962 and a big ol' train "late with the mail."

Tom

[meteor910]

Mike, Chris -

I suggest you put a copy of Keith's posting above of the Frisco Vest pocket Diagram booklet, Rev Y, of 3/78 (the start of this thread) in the Diesel Diagrams folder. That way it will be easier to find in the future.

Ken

[klrwhizkid]

The copy has been posted in Diesel Diagrams.