Smelters for off-line ores

[WindsorSpring]

Karl's album "3-Footers" led me to a sigh of relief.* It is acceptable to have a fascination for the Colorado narrow gauge lines, even on this bulletin board.
*
Now, to bring it on topic.
*
Where were*smelters on the Frisco system?
*
Did any of these process ore from off-line?
*
Specifically, did any smelters on the Frisco system process ore from points in Colorado like Gunnison, Silverton, Georgetown, Telluride*or the other iconic narrow gauge terminals?
*
Did any receive partially-processed minerals?* Here, I am mostly*thinking of ingots of mixed metals, or refined ores of mixed metals, because some of the mines yield zinc, lead, silver and a few other metals.
*
That odd Colorado & Southern or Denver & Rio Grande Western box car (or covered hopper) just may have a place on a Frisco layout after all!
*
George

[mvtelegrapher]

I know many smelters were located on the Frisco in the Southwest Missouri, Southeast Kansas and Northeast Oklahoma area's. These were smelters for refining lead and zinc and depending on the time frame used coal, natural gas or oil as the fuel for the refining process. Pittsburg, Kansas had three smelters around 1900 and all of them were served by the Frisco and were coal fired. The first zinc smelter in southeast Kansas was located at Weir City and was served by the Frisco. At one time Cherryvale, Kansas had the largest lead and zinc smelter in the world and it was located on the Frisco. It was known as the Edgar Zinc Works and used natural gas. I'm not sure if the Frisco ever had smelters to process silver or gold located on line.

John Chambers

[klrwhizkid]

I'm not sure, someone with better knowlege can correct me, but the Noranda Aluminum Smelter in at New Madrid, Mo may have been serviced by the Frisco when they came online in 1968.

[WindsorSpring]

Thanks to mvtelegrapher for an answer to the question of where smelters were located on the Frisco. It certainly makes sense they would be located near the active mining area of the western Ozark plateau in SE KS, SW MO and NE OK. I still wonder whether the zinc or lead operations could have received concentrates or ore from Colorado mines. There could have been periods when economics for shipping would beat the capital cost of building a smelter.

Did the River Division have a lead smelter? I know there was a shot tower in Herculaneum, but that was on Missouri-Illinois (part of M-P) not on Frisco. Lead ore from Viburnum comes through Lindenwood (past my house), but what is its final destination?

Uranium is another metal that enters consideration. It came from an area to the west of that shown in Karl's "3-Footers" album, but successive processing steps happened in areas very distant from the mining sites. The Weldon Spring plant in St. Charles County, MO was served by a spur off the MKT.

[River Hills Travler]

There was suppose to be a smelter at Smelterville, Mo. (south Cape) that would have been on th SL-SF or Mop. I think buildings were built but I dont know how much was ever shipper. Would have had in and out bound traffic I think. The Frisco had an agent for the steel mill at Blythville (spelling?) knew him, great guy. RHT

[meteor910]

Lead ore from Viburnum comes through Lindenwood (past my house), but what is its final destination?


George -

What cars do they haul the lead ore in?

Ken

[WindsorSpring]

I posted "lead ore from Viburnum passes by my house." Meteor910 asked what kind of cars.

It is carried in gondolas. They carry what looks like a pinkish, gray-white, fine gravel in a pile over each truck. There does not appear to be anything carried in the middle of the car.

They are generally black cars, but I have not paid too much attention to car markings, so I am not sure which rail line owns them.

It frequently passes by in the eastbound MWF-afternoon local. If I recall correctly there was about one shipment per week, maybe two. I do not recall seeing any lately, however.

This is another reason to look up from weeding or mowing the lawn to pay closer attention to the train! (...and also have the camera handy.)

[klrwhizkid]

Based on Sanborn maps I have for Cape Girardeau, Mo beginning in 1893 through 1931, there was never a smelter or any industry in what was commonly called Smelterville. The area referred to as Smelterville was a shanty town populated by very poor people of multiple races located south of the Frisco yard, east and north of Hely Crushed Stone and the cement plant.

I had forgotten there was and has been a lead smelter at Herculaneum, Mo on the River Division.

Other smelters were located in Boss, Buick, Glover and Viburnum, Missouri.

[WindsorSpring]

Smelters at Buick and Viburnum certainly would have processed locally-mined lead. Economic conditions may not justify keeping them active and that could explain the eastbound Cuba Sub shipments.

[River Hills Travler]

The Southeast Missourian (Cape Girardeau, Mo and surrounding area ) runs a section called "Out of the Past". For the 100 years ago: May 9, 1906 they report "The first buildings of the great Southern Metal and Manufacturing plant were practically completed Saturday,and what is to be one of the largest lead-manufacturing plants in the United States is rapidly taking shape just south of Cape Girardeau." There is mention of this plant and the various railroads in the Cape area from time to time. The only people that could have shed some light on this for me are deceased. I dont know if the news paper or the museum could help us out.|-|

[WindsorSpring]

The River Hills Travler has suggested a good resource in the Cape Girardeau Southeast Missourian. Thanks are due.

I checked their website for the "Out of the Past" feature
http://www.semissourian.com/records/past/ Unfortunately, the log of their records only goes back to May 16 (two months from the current date), so I could not access the one for May 9 readily. This will doubtless slide forward daily. Adding this to an "Internet scan" (after lingering at frisco.org) does look like a way to pick up the occasional historical news bit about rails and other business activities in the area.

[klrwhizkid]

I just discussed the smelter issue with my dad, who grew up in Cape. He said that at one time a group began to start a smelter business in "Smelterville" but apparently the business venture may have been under capitalized and failed without any significant business being done. He said he never saw anything of the business, nor much evidence of buildings of any consequence in that area when he was a boy in the early 30's.

I will make a point of verifying the information at Kent Library at SEMO when I go to Cape to do research in August. It is interesting that the 1908, 1915, 19Sanborn Maps do not document what would have been a relatively risky (in terms of fire hazards) business that would have been located there.

[klrwhizkid]

I just went to the Missouirian's website and searched Southern Metal and Manufacturing, revealing entries from 1906 through 1908. The rest of the story comes to light. My dad's memory was correct - the venture was under capitalized and failed to produce an ounce of lead. The failure of the business by May of 1908 would explain why it does not show up on the Sanborn maps.

[River Hills Travler]

Keith, Hope your visit to Cape goes well. From some of the posts in the S.E. Missourian it sounds like some buildings were constructed. If you get a chance the college book store has a book on Louis Houck written by a college professor, I old railroads are your thing you might but it and get him to autograph it. Dwain |-|

[WindsorSpring]

Here are some pictures taken in July and August 2009 of lead ore loads on the eastbound Cuba Sub local. The load is piled only over the trucks and is barely visible above the car side.

The link is to a picture of a model of the same kind of load in the HO modeling section in a thread about 1950-era freight cars:

http://www.frisco.org/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=5385&d=1209502280

It showed up as one of the random pictures from clicking "All Aboard" to and it reminded me to post these shots.

Happy Holidays!

George

[meteor910]

Man, that lead ore must really be heavy. Any idea of its bulk density? Did you notice if these gons are drop bottom, drop ends, ???

Those are 100+ ton gons, and they still have to short load them and pile the ore up over the trucks. Wooo!

I'm thinking of putting a load like this in one or two of my SLSF 61000 series gons (but they are only 70 ton cars!). I'm wondering if the SLSF ever used them in lead ore service. Probably not.

Looks like limestone rock would be about the correct color.

Ken

[WindsorSpring]

Car type:

I do not know if the TILX or CEFX gondola cars are drop-bottom or if they have drop-ends. My guess is that they do not. I will have to observe more closely when the loads go by.

Bulk Density:


A best guess is that lead ore bulk density is at least twice that of a typical rock ballast or aggregate load. This is based on specific gravities of a couple minerals I found in Simon & Schuster's Guide to Rocks and Minerals (1977).


Lead ore might contain:

Cerrusite PbCO3 sp. g. 6.5 or
Phosgenite Pb(CO3)Cl2 sp. g. 6.3 and maybe some
Galena PbS 7.2 to 7.6 or
Anglesite PbSO4 6.3

The limestone surrounding rock would have:
Calcite CaCO3 2.71 or
Dolomite CaMg(CO3)2 2.95

Granite aggregate or ballast would consist of:
Quartz SiO2 2.65
Biotite 2.8-3.2
Hornblende 3.0-3.4

Ballast, aggregate and other rock loads typically do not use the full cubic capacity of a car. A lead ore load would occupy less that half the volume of an aggregate or ballast load based on these assumptions.

Frisco-lettered cars with this type of load:

I believe TRAINS magazine had an article about the lead line. It should have pictures. Further, I believe I recall seeing strings of Frisco gondolas with a similar load in the late '70's. That was a long time ago, so I could be wrong.

[Bradley A. Scott]

It's not quite on the Frisco, but the following link, recently posted to the EarlyRails discussion list by Tom Teeple, discusses what was evidently a very large silver-smelting operation at Argentine, Kansas, which received Colorado ore up until October 1901, when the work force was shifted to smelters closer to the mines.

http://www.kckpl.lib.ks.us/KSCOLL/lochist/thennow/TN45.htm

Offtopic but worth noting: Teeple's "Classic Liberty Street" webpage, describing his 1895-era layout based on the West Bottoms industrial area and his exquisite scratchbuilt and kitbashed period rolling stock, is well worth browsing for historical and modeling inspiration.

http://libertystreet.allhyper.com/

[pensive]

The April 1996 edition of Trains is the magazine that had the article entitled "BN gets the lead out" describing operations on the lead belt line from Cuba MO. The article states "The Viburnum plant is one of three active mills consolidated under Doe Run; they receive coarse crushed ore from six mines in the New Lead Belt." It says that a smelter once occupied the site of the Doe Run recycling center.

Apparently the local smelter operation ended before the Frisco merged with the BN. On page 92 of Frisco/Katy Color Guide to Freight Equipment by Nicholas Molo, the caption for the series 65300-65499 gondolas states "The assignment "BUICK-HERCULANEUM" was for St. Joe Lead Company that had mines near Buick, MO and a smelter in Herculaneum, MO. The Frisco collected the traffic on the Salem Branch, hauled it to Lindenwood (St. Louis), and then forwarded it down the River Division to Crystal City for interchange with the MoPac. Interestingly, the smelter at Herculaneum had rotary dumpers set-up for dumping standard gondolas." I visited the Heculaneum area about a year ago, and the smelter was still active.

Rich

[WindsorSpring]

Thanks, Bradley Scott, for the link to the description of the smelter at Argentine, KS. It mentions processing ores from North and South America and it makes sense some could have originated on the Colorado narrow gauge lines. There was plenty of time between its organization in 1880 and closing in 1901 for standard gauge cars letter for D&RG or another Colorado road to have delivered concentrates.

Thanks to pensive for noting rotary-dump equipment was available for standard gondolas. That answers Meteor910's question about the car type. I will still look at them to see if an odd drop-bottom, or drop-end shows up in the mix.

[tferk]

I know this thread is a year old, but I wanted to correct some information in it for purposes of historical and technical accuracy. I was employed by the US Bureau of Mines in Rolla and had the fortune of visiting some of the mines, mills and smelters in the Missouri Lead Belt. I also worked for Noranda in New Madrid.

First, while the Noranda Aluminum smelter is located very near the Frisco (directly east of the station of "Marston"), it is actually served by the UP (ex-SSW) off what is left of their Malden-New Madrid branch. When the City of New Madrid developed the New Madrid Industrial Park in 1969, Cotton Belt built a spur south from their branch into the park.

Next, I do not know what specifically the pinkish rock is loaded in those gondolas (photos above), but it is definitely not lead ore. Lead ore (galena) is very grey, as is the lead concentrate. I am not aware of anyone ever attempting to ship unconcentrated lead ore out of the New Lead Belt. Shipping ore is a very expensive proposition, since the actual metal content is very low and you are paying to ship the waste rock portion also. That is why mills/concentrators were located near the mines on the Lead Line. The mills processed the ore into concentrate which was then shipped out via Frisco to be smelted into metal. Because the New Lead Belt ores also contained zinc and copper, Frisco trains hauled three types of concentrates: lead, copper and zinc. Concentrates are so heavy that you would not see the load above the car side.

Regarding the smelter located at Boss on the Lead Line, it was indeed active during Frisco times, as it was owned by AMAX-Homestake and not St Joe Lead. There were several firms operating mines and mills along the Lead Line, so here is capsule history.

St Joe Lead (later Doe Run) had several mines and mills, shipping lead concentrate via Frisco-MP to their smelter at Herculaneum. The St Joe mines near Viburnum (#27, #28, #29) fed the Viburnum mill, served directly by Frisco. Mine #28 was on the same site as the mill. St Joe's Brushy Creek and Fletcher mines each had their own mills, trucking their concentrate to the end of the Frisco branch at Buick where it was transloaded to railcars. All St Joe mills produced 3 separate concentrates: lead (shipped to Herculaneum), zinc (shipped to domestic zinc smelters) and copper (to domestic smelters or exported.)

The Buick mine/mill and Buick smelter were a joint venture between AMAX and Homestake, and were located near the small burg of Boss, MO. The Buick mill produced only two concentrates: lead-copper and zinc. The lead-copper concentrate was smelted at their Buick smelter, the zinc concentrate was shipped by rail to the AMAX smelter at Sauget, IL. A by-product of the Buick smelter was sulfuric acid, also shipped out by rail. In 1986, Homestake bought out AMAX’s interest in the Buick operations, then Homestake and St Joe merged to form Doe Run. The Buick smelter operated as a primary lead smelter until put on standby in 1986, then in 1991 Doe Run converted it to a secondary lead smelter to recycle lead scrap and lead waste (mostly car batteries.)

The Magmont mine/mill was a joint venture between Cominco American and Dresser Industries. It also produced three types of concentrate. Lead concentrate was trucked over to the adjacent AMAX-Homestake Buick smelter. Zinc concentrate was sent by rail to the AMAX zinc smelter at Sauget, IL. Copper concentrate was shipped out by rail to either domestic smelters or for export.

So, during the Frisco era of the Lead Line, outbound local 5131 from Buick to Cuba, and local 5110 from Cuba to Lindenwood, could be found to be hauling:
--St Joe lead concentrate (gons) for interchange to MP at Crystal City for the Herculaneum smelter
--Refined lead (boxcars), copper matte (gondolas) and sulfuric acid (tank cars) from the Buick smelter
--Copper concentrate (gons) from St Joe and Magmont for various destinations
--Zinc concentrate (gons) from St Joe, Magmont and AMAX for various destinations

As an aside, silver was contained in these concentrates, and was removed at the smelters. So, yes, in a way Frisco did move some silver.

Ted Ferkenhoff
Flagstaff, AZ

[yardmaster]

Ted, superb information! Very thorough and good for the Frisco historian or modeler to know. Thanks very much for contributing to the thread,

[JohnFoster]

I recall see the gon with a grayish /white 10 to 12 in deep in each of car of gon. The gon sometimes leak outcontents of car to the ground. We would walk across the tracks at work and see small piles gray/ white laying on ground. One time I was so intersting see the small piles sample was taken. Asked a fellow employ what he though it was (lead) now i know the rest of the story.

[Karl]

As an aside, silver was contained in these concentrates, and was removed at the smelters. So, yes, in a way Frisco did move some silver.

Ted Ferkenhoff
Flagstaff, AZ


Good stuff, Ted.

My mineralogy professor, Crazy Irwin, the Mad Mineralogist, Mantei did some consulting work for St Joe Lead, and we got to make a couple of trips underground with him and the St Joe geologist. He told us that the Old Lead Belt lead ore contained more silver than the New Lead Belt ore. He claimed that he could look at a galena (PbS) cube and tell from which Belt the ore came. Silver is almost always present in Galena, the silver atoms will also bond with the sulfur atoms. Since the silver atom is smaller than the lead atom, the mineral cubes with high silver content will have slightly concave crystal faces.
Unfortunately, our mine trips didn’t include observing any of the post-mining processing or observing the Frisco.
Attached is a cross section and index map that from my class notes that depicts the geologic setting of the New Lead Belt. The mineralization occurs primarily in the reefs (dark blue) in the cross section) which formed around the igneous islands in the Cambrian sea. The reefs are very porous and vuggy which allowed for relatively high concentrations of lead.
Also shown is a sample taken during one of our trips. The galena cubes can be seen on the marcasite, FeS2 Marcasite is a dimorphous form of pyrite, also FeS2.

[WindsorSpring]

Tferk mentioned: "Next, I do not know what specifically the pinkish rock is loaded in those gondolas (photos above), but it is definitely not lead ore. Lead ore (galena) is very grey, as is the lead concentrate."

This made me review the original collection of pictures. There definitely is a pinkish cast to the rock pile in the second gondola (TILX 3197) in the first picture. The sky was cloudy, so that may account for shifting the color. The lighting for this picture makes the ballast a bit more blue and pink than it shows in the other two posted photos. There definitely is some pink granite in the ballast. The gondola loads in the other postings, taken on a separate day are light gray in color, though not as dark as Karl's galena specimen.

The added information about the mines, smelters and movements was very helpful. I knew sulfuric acid production occurred in Sauget, but did not know the origin of the ores. Also, someone modeling the train can include a tank car placarded UN 1830 for the sulfuric acid.

George

[meteor910]

Ah Karl! I love it! Thanks - always good to know the technical view of what we see on the rails.

I never went down a lead mine, but have gone down both coal and trona (soda ash) mines in Wyoming. Different world down there - I prefer the surface!

As George suggests - sulfuric acid (H2SO4) has a role to play in many metal ore processing operations, as a co-product or as a raw material. But - the stuff is very heavy, about 1.8 times the density of water. Don't placard a tank car larger than 8000 gal with UN 1830 designations!

Ken