on road or off road?

[Iantha_Branch]

After I got done refueling the tractor about 15 minutes ago, I wondered do diesel locomotives run on on road or off road diesel? Ok, thoughs of you that farm know what it is. For thoughs of you that live in the city what off road diesel is, it's the same thing that you find at Phillups 66 but it's got a red dye to it and you don't pat take on it. But because you don't pay tax on it means you can't run it on the highways. Thats what the red dye is for. So which do they run on, off road (dyed red, not taxed) or on road(clear and taxed).

[HWB]

They use off road diesel. The technical term in Non Road Locomotive Diesel or NRLD for short. It can't have a sulfur content of over 500 parts per million. They use to use what was called railroad diesel which was even heavier than off road diesel. EPA regs did away with that in the early 1990's. Now sulfur specs dictate what is on-road and off road

[Sirfoldalot]

In the left corner we have bob_wintle. :D
In the right corner we have HWB. :D
The gloves are off. :mad:
Taking wagers now at the window. :cool:

[pbender]

While there have been some rules that went into effect regarding sulphur content of diesel fuel in the last few years, the distinguishing factor between "on-road" and "off-road" diesel sold by fuel distributors is whether or not fuel taxes have been collected.

Railroads DO NOT pay highway fuel taxes on the fuel they use, so it is therefore off-road diesel.

Off road fuel (along with #1 or #2 heating oil) is dyed when it is delivered to an end user so that a law enforcement official can visibly see if fuel used in a highway vehicle is off road fuel. Because taxes that maintain roads are collected when the fuel is sold, it isn't legal to drive a vehicle with off-road fuel on the highway, and there are hefty fines if you are caught.

There isn't much chance that a locomotive will drive down the street, so there isn't a requirement to dye the fuel as there is with diesel fuel sold to (say) a farm.

The railroads are required to pay fuel taxes on fuels pumped into highway vehicles, but the railroads typically use different fuel nozzles to fill locomotive tanks, and those don't work well on highway vehicles (plus, not all railroad vehicles are diesels).

As far as dying the fuel, the railroads I've really watched appear to be treated like the fuel distributors. They move their own fuel from place to place, sometimes filling tank cars up at the refinery. They are responsible for keeping track of how much (if any) of the fuel is pumped into road vehicles, so they can pay appropriate taxes, but they don't bother with the dye. Shortlines may very well buy their diesel from the local distributor, who may dye it on delivery.

Paul

[tomd6]

Up until about four years ago all US Railroads had to pay a tax of 4.3 cents per gallon of diesel fuel. The frustrating part was that the revenues from the tax went into the general budget unlike hightay fuel taxes that went into the Highway Trust Fund and avaiation fuel taxes that went into a simialr aviation fund. The railroads were able to get the 4.3 cent tax eliminated.

[HWB]

Let me clarify things as I work in a refinery and have first hand knowledge of diesel fuel, how its made, graded and sent to market.

ULSD or ultra low sulfur diesel is what is now known as on road diesel. The same diesel is dyed red and sold as off road diesel. The red dye distinguishes it from taxable and non taxable. The sulfur spec has to be met either way. 15 ppm. NO if and or buts about it. ULSD has an additive put into it at the point of loading (sale) called lubricity to make up for the loss of lubrication due to the flash point and removal of sulfur that NRLD has. Only large contract buyers such as railroads or marine companies can purchase the non road locomotive diesel

[HWB]

In the left corner we have bob_wintle. :D
In the right corner we have HWB. :D
The gloves are off. :mad:
Taking wagers now at the window. :cool:


and that is FUNNY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

but seriously; it has nothing to due with taxes. It's how much will the EPA allow you to pollute to move a ton of freight.

[pbender]

but seriously; it has nothing to due with taxes. It's how much will the EPA allow you to pollute to move a ton of freight.

Sorry, but you're both right and wrong.

You are correct in stating that the federal government, through the EPA, does set rules about Non-Road Diesel, including fuel used for railroad locomotives (see: http://www.epa.gov/oms/locomotives.htm )

You are incorrect in stating that on-road vs off-road has nothing to do with taxes. The Federal and State Governments set rules about the uses of taxed vs non-taxed fuels (see: http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_01/26cfr48_01.html for federal rules). US code sets different tax rates for fuel used for different applications. There at least was a tax rate for railroad diesel at one point (which i can't actually find), which was a lower rate than the tax for highway use. There is also an exemption for dyed fuels used in non-taxable situations (farm use, home heating,etc). (see section 48.4082-1: http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2001/aprqtr/pdf/26cfr48.4082-1.pdf )

The tax rules have been in place a lot longer than the EPA rules have been (fuel taxes have paid for the interstate Highway system since the beginning), so while the EPA rules and the IRS rules overlap, the tax rules are the ones that provided the definitions of on-road and off-road use.

Paul

[pbender]

ULSD or ultra low sulfur diesel is what is now known as on road diesel. The same diesel is dyed red and sold as off road diesel. The red dye distinguishes it from taxable and non taxable. The sulfur spec has to be met either way. 15 ppm. NO if and or buts about it. ULSD

But remember, ULSD has been required for highway vehicle use for less than 5 years. Prior to that, the distinction you are trying to make didn't exist.

Paul

[TAG1014]

What's this got to do with railfanning and modeling the Frisco??

Tom

[FRISCO4503]

I don't think he posted the question to start an argument. In fact I am certain he posted the question because he wanted to know the difference between the diesel he puts in his tractor vs. what is put into today's locomotives. what it has to do with railroading is, he is young, curious and like a lot of us, want to know anything and everything about the railroad and how it operates. If some of you don't remember, this is how we all started, simply by asking questions. It would have been easiest to answer the question, correctly, and go on to the next question. And as far as the government, we all know they have their hands in everything, from fuel to shoe string sales. I would like to add that while I was in college, I learned, that in order for the government to step in and stop a railroad strike, the government gives the railroads a huge kickback on their fuel. In otherwords the Government provides so much fuel to the "Major" railroads to fuel their locomotives especially in the winter time when temperatures get below a certain degree and "All" railroads have to keep their engines running around the clock to keep them from freezing up. The fuel used in the locomotives also acts as a lubricant and is recycled into the fuel tank to be burnt for power. I aint claiming to know everything about the railroad but the railroad did learnt me up a little. I at least know what makes em "GO"|-|:)|-|:)|-|

[pbender]

Getting back to what this has to do with railroads, and the Frisco in particular...

We all know that the Frisco had tank cars in company service with yellow domes that were marked "diesel fuel only" (or words to that effect). ( see: http://www.frisco.org/vb/showthread.php?t=847 )The Frisco used those tank cars to move fuel from refineries or fuel distributors to the various servicing locations.

Large Railroads frequently buy their fuel from the cheapest online source. One of the factors that goes into determining the price is the taxes applied to the fuel. Obviously, any federal taxes are the same everywhere, but state tax rules may influence the choice of where the fuel is purchased.

So getting back to the Frisco, does anyone know what sources the Frisco used for fuel?

Paul

[HWB]

I know that at Cherokee it came from the DX and later Sun Refinery. I watched my mother put the loading spout in the yellow domed cars. That was in the late 70's early 80's and continued during the BN takeover.